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To slam or not to slam?

#1 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:13

Matchpoints, both vulnerable, LHO deals, Std. Am. partnership:

(P) - 1♦ - (P) - 1♠
(P) - 2♠ - (P) - ?

You hold:

♠ Q J 10 7 6 2
♥ 10
♦ K 9
♣ A K 6 5

So, what do you think? Slam? No slam? Maybe slam? Where do you go from here?
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#2 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:21

4♥ splinter, so partner can judge waste in the suit.
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:25

View Postbillw55, on 2012-August-16, 14:21, said:

4♥ splinter, so partner can judge waste in the suit.


4♥ is so, final. No last train, and you are hog-tied over a slow 4♠.

I think I'll start with 3♣.
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#4 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:25

afraid 4h may be exclusion...not sure enough

so I will try 3c.
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#5 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:30

3♣ would be hsgt for me. Maybe those aren't such a great idea.
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#6 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:33

sure prd reads 3c as a game try:
1) he should cue if any extras.
2) will understand we are making a cuebid if we bid past 3s.
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#7 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:34

View Postbillw55, on 2012-August-16, 14:30, said:

3♣ would be hsgt for me. Maybe those aren't such a great idea.


No that's standard, but why limit them to a game try?
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:36

View PostPhil, on 2012-August-16, 14:25, said:

4♥ is so, final. No last train, and you are hog-tied over a slow 4♠.

If I chose 4H splinter, it would be intended as final, leaving the Captaincy to opener. It wouldn't matter how hogtied I felt over a slow or fast 4S. It was his considered decision.
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#9 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 14:47

View PostPhil, on 2012-August-16, 14:34, said:

No that's standard, but why limit them to a game try?

Maybe I misunderstand their use. To me, this asks partner only about his club holding (in this case, whether he has the ♣Q), when what I really want to know is his heart holding (KJxx bad, xxxx good).

I think 4♠ over 4♥ just says no interest, it's an easy pass for me.
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#10 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 15:17

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-16, 14:36, said:

If I chose 4H splinter, it would be intended as final, leaving the Captaincy to opener. It wouldn't matter how hogtied I felt over a slow or fast 4S. It was his considered decision.

I 100% agree. I like 4♥, and I can't really imagine that partner is likely to make a bad decision over it. Why shouldn't I give him the decision when I can describe my hand?
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 15:33

View Postlalldonn, on 2012-August-16, 15:17, said:

I 100% agree. I like 4♥, and I can't really imagine that partner is likely to make a bad decision over it. Why shouldn't I give him the decision when I can describe my hand?

How much are you showing with 4♥ ? enough to make a slam opposite a flat hand with 11 working points ? like AKxx, xxx, Axxx, xx. This is what worries me, I think responder may think you're looking for a different sort of minimum like one with a 5th diamond and some potential tricks from the diamond suit or a better hand, give you something like QJxxxx, x, KQx, Axx where you're looking for AKxx, xx(x), AJxxx, x(x).

I think I'd bid 3♣ to get more info.
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#12 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 15:34

View Postbillw55, on 2012-August-16, 14:47, said:

View PostPhil, on 2012-August-16, 14:34, said:

View Postbillw55, on 2012-August-16, 14:30, said:

3♣ would be hsgt for me. Maybe those aren't such a great idea.

No that's standard, but why limit them to a game try?

Maybe I misunderstand their use. To me, this asks partner only about his club holding (in this case, whether he has the ♣Q) . . . .

Will partner know that it asks for the ♣Q? I could see him obviously being enthusiastic with the ♣A or ♣K, but not nearly so much with the ♣Q.
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Simplify the complicated side; don't complify the simplicated side.
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#13 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 15:36

View PostCyberyeti, on 2012-August-16, 15:33, said:

How much are you showing with 4♥ ? enough to make a slam opposite a flat hand with 11 working points ? like AKxx, xxx, Axxx, xx. This is what worries me, I think responder may think you're looking for a different sort of minimum like one with a 5th diamond and some potential tricks from the diamond suit or a better hand, give you something like QJxxxx, x, KQx, Axx where you're looking for AKxx, xx(x), AJxxx, x(x).

I think I'd bid 3♣ to get more info.

He has AK A doubleton in the other suits and you think he will sign off??? You are looking for working cards for slam, which partner will now know are generally outside hearts. If you need other things (like a long diamond suit?) that is when you take a slower route.
"What's the big rebid problem? After 1♦ - 1♠, I can rebid 1NT, 2♠, or 2♦."
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#14 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 15:49

View Postlalldonn, on 2012-August-16, 15:36, said:

He has AK A doubleton in the other suits and you think he will sign off???


And yet, slam with ♠AK + ♦A, slam is hopeless if he has a 3rd club.

While I appreciate the splinterors, pard's club holding seems pretty important. He'll also like to hear about our ♦K, and he will not be hell-bent to cue bid the ♥K if we have possible shortness.
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#15 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-August-16, 16:42

Partner is the thinking sort of person. If I only wanted the AK of spades and the diamond bullet, I might ask about keycards, or bid 3C and then ask about keycards, or bid 3D and then ask about two-trump keycards.

She will know that more is needed, and that her jump to game over 3C would not have been useful to this auction. Certainly she will not undertake 6S over 4H without something more.
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#16 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 01:06

Hi
Obviously start with cue-bid 3c,and it is a normal process for me to check controls of all suits so as to revalue hands before decision of slam.
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#17 User is offline   S2000magic 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 05:54

View Postaguahombre, on 2012-August-16, 16:42, said:

Partner is the thinking sort of person.

As the lawyers might say: assumes facts not in evidence.
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#18 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 06:14

I play 3C as a natural slam try (fairly standard here, all invites bid 2NT), but I still wouldn't bid it. I think that 4H is much better.


Phil's comment about partner bidding a slow 4S must be a joke. If partner bids 4S, slow or fast, I pass.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#19 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 06:51

Yeah, the hand is too strong for 4H.
Let's say partner has AKxx Kxx Axxx xx slam is laydown and he has clear 4S bid.
Imo it will be difficult to stop at game level here. I start with 3C which might come in handy if we need input from partner. He will now xx of clubs is perfect and xxx is bad.

Quote

If partner bids 4S, slow or fast, I pass.


It sounds like you misread our hand. It's 6-1-2-4, not 5-1-2-4 :-)
We are cold for 12 tricks opposite many hand which will not even think about moving after 4H.
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#20 User is offline   the_clown 

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Posted 2012-August-17, 08:09

I dont agree that partner should cuebid when he has some extras opposite my game try. The cuebid gives a lot of information to the defenders and since 90+% of the time I have only invitational hand I dont think this is really profitable.

Of course you will have difficulties with the slam hands, but they dont come that often......
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