BBO Discussion Forums: too high or just unlucky? - BBO Discussion Forums

In a club game, my partner bid a sacrifice on the very last board while we were leading the whole tournament, and went doubled down 4, making us lost the winner title.



East had a 20-count 5=4=0=4. He cashed 5 top tricks and let partner ruffed the 6th, the perfect defence they had. Par contract was 6♠ by them, but only 1 table out of 6 could bid it, which was the only worse result than us, so we got 1/5 MPs.

The full results are follow, sorted in order:

5♦-2 -100 5/5:


4♠+2 -480 3.5/5:


4♠+2 -480 3.5/5:


5♦x-3 -500 2/5:


5♦x-4 -800 1/5 (our table):


6♠= -980 0/5:


I want to know the opinion about the 5♦ sacrifice by North bid to the number of trumps, but ended up as a disaster with 5 quick losers lost immediately. Was this bid too high or just because we were too unlucky in the way where E-W cards were lied?

Also, does the expected field strength matter here? i.e. will you bid differently if playing in a club game or in a world-class tournament?

I understand the urge to overcall 2D, but I think it a bad call.

The hand is too flat, the suit too short/weak and the high cards minimal.

Move a small heart into your diamond suit, so you are 2=1=6=4, and I approve the bid….note that now you may well be -300 in 5D if they try to cash a second heart.

I agree with mikeh, the South hand is too poor to overcall at the two level. North made a reasonable attempt to jam the auction on a huge fit with no defence, but the South hand contributes little offensively. Don't overcall at the two level on poor hands. You were a little unlucky that only one other could find the slam, but often even if they have slam on, if you are going to sacrifice, the sacrifice should be less than their game unless the slam is so obvious that almost everyone will find it.

Why is a 11 HCP hand with AQxxx too poor for a 2-level overcall?

I won't overcall with a Jxxxx diamond suit but, what do you think the suit quality to make an overcall with a 5-card suit?

Also, what's North expecting for my suit?

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-07, 13:08, said:

Often a 6th diamond or a little more in terms of HCP or intermediates, I would overcall that suit if my clubs were KJ10x for example, I might if I has xx in spades and KQJx in clubs. Part of the reason it went badly was predictable once W raised, your ♠K wasn't a trick for you because partner was short, but was a trick in defence.

Expert practice has shifted towards being more aggressive almost everywhere, but it's shifted more conservative on 2 level non-jump overcalls.

5D is ok.
The only question is, if the 2D was a wise decision.
The suit quality is ok, due to the 9.
I may do it, but this does not make the bid better, ..., at first glance I though you were 5332,
which would make the call even worse, but you are 5422.

And even if your loss was due to this boards, maybe you could have done better in the previous boards,
which would have given you a greater buffer.

With kind regards
Marlowe

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-07, 13:08, said:

I’d have to write a very, very long post to proper justice to this topic.

Also, it probably depends, to some degree, on the calibre of your opposition.

Weak players tend to screw up quite often in competition.

Strong players generally handle it better.

In particular, strong players know when to reopen with a double, after 1x (2y) P (P) and their (also strong) partners know when to convert that double and both know how to defend.

IOW, in strong competition, you need to have some degree of comfort that you won’t be going for a number. There’s no guarantees, but a 6 card suit is both less likely to get penalized and usually plays a trick better than a 5 card suit.

So most good players, after 1M on their right, would want a decent 6 card suit unless they hold a ‘good’ opening hand and a chunky 5 card suit.

Of course, one can’t bid only in fear, but having extra values (compared to the 2D overcall shown here) is very useful when the hand belongs to us.

Say I hold AJ9 Kxxx Kx Jxxx

I’d expect to have reasonable play for 3N after my partner bid 2D over a 1S opening. I’d be expecting a good shot at 6 diamond tricks, I have (probably) two spade stoppers (without partner holding any spade honour) and would expect to score some round suit tricks as well since 2D delivers more than AQJxxx in diamonds and out.

There is one sequence in which good players tend to be aggressive in 2/1 overcalls….after an opening of 1D, a 2C call can wreak havoc.

Most players require either both majors or a long major (with insufficient values to bid 2M) or a diamond fit if they are to double.

Pick up, say, Qx KJxxx Jxx Qxx

Most would say the this isn’t quite good enough for 2H. if you disagree, weaken it a tad.

Double and what do you do over 2S or 3S or 4S?

So many good players see this one sequence as offering more upside, in terms of causing problems for the opps, than after a 1M opening. It’s not that 2C holds fewer downsides…it’s just that the balance tends to favour 2C/1D compared to, say, 2D/1M

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-07, 13:08, said:

It is flat with soft values, suit quality of 7, where are your tricks coming from? I'd want three of five honors in the suit to overcall at the two level with five, this one isn't quite good enough.

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-07, 13:08, said:

As a general rule, I would suggest not overcalling at the 2-level with 5-card suits. You have to take a lot of tricks when they have already announced values, it's fairly easy to penalise you when it is right to do so and if you have a 5-card suit and good values you will probably have enough defence to trouble them in a game. In particular, you should be quite careful about broken suits and balanced hands.

Obviously there are counterexamples to this rule (excellent suits, good shape and strong hands all come to mind). However, if you start from the premise of not doing it then it becomes easier to recognise the hands that really should overcall.

as other forum posts have said, the 2♦ overcall is light. you have confidence the ♠K is a good card as 1♠ is opened on your right, so you overcall 2♦ thinking you have fair value. but your overcall suit is not good, just five cards and your shape is 2254, let me put this another way. if you had ♠x ♥kxx ♦aqxxx ♣qxxx would you feel good doubling a 1♠ opening on your right? that is borderline also and gives three places (suits) to play but the hand is also sub-minimum so you should be disciplined and pass. with the hand given ♠kx ♥xx ♦aqxxx ♣qxxx you should be equally disciplined and pass here.

I agree with everything mikeh said. In my partnership we stress the type of example hand that has play for 3NT - the auction (1X)-2m-(P)-3NT is not uncommon for us. As a rule we require 6-card suits or '5-card suits and compensation', usually in the form of extra shape in the side-suits (1354 or the likes) or extra values (say, 15+ HCP).
However, this is at IMPs. At MPs I would be more aggressive and add a number of lead-directing hands to the bid - say, 11 HCP, a strong diamond suit that we really want led even if we hold only 5. The hand shown still doesn't qualify, but it is closer to the mark.
One extra reason for not overcalling light on the 2-level is that the upsides are often not that great. Excluding the (1♦)-2♣ sequence, the opponents are under not that much pressure. Plus, if you get to play it there, it is often a poor score. The primary upside of light 2-level overcalls is finding profitable sacrifices if partner has a nice fit, but this is a very narrow target to hit. You need enough values to bid on the 2-level without big risk, but not enough to set their higher contract. Partner needs a good fit and some slight values, but not too much. Also, if you have a 5-card suit, the extra shape for a profitable sacrifice is often missing. Personally I am more than happy to give up those sharp sacrifices for more certainty regarding the constructive value of our 2-level overcalls.

The 5♦ bid was very good, and despite the flaws of the 2♦ bid the result was unlucky. The auctions at all other tables seem far from optimal to me, I wouldn't worry too much about getting a random bad board against this field every once in a while.

As David says partnership style matters. I have typically been a 2♦ bidder on hands like South's when not vulnerable, but my regular partner prefers a decent 6-card suit to give us a better shot at running the suit (or a really good hand). That has led to some good 3NT contracts. The main thing though is to have a style and stick to it.
And you were a bit unlucky. If South has a heart less, or North has a club less, or clubs break and you can avoid a third club loser, -500 is all you concede.

LBengtsson, on 2021-October-07, 23:10, said:

I still don't really understand here. The criteria I use to overcall at the 2-level at the direct seat is "opening value with decent suit quality, where value and quality can complement each other", which this hand certainly does (11 HCP 5422 headed by AQ). The minimum I overcall is ♠xx ♥xxx ♦AKQxx ♣xxx in order to show the offensive values.

And this is nothing to do with takeout double. With the perfect shape (4441 or 5440) I double as few as 10 or even 9 points, and pass any response.

With ♠x ♥kxxx ♦aqxx ♣qxxx I always double a 1♠ opening.

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-08, 15:29, said:

These are weaker criteria than a lot of other players prefer. It is often winning bridge to shut up despite having opening values.

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-08, 15:29, said:

You remind me of a small number of players I encountered years ago. We had a Regional tournament and the organizers asked a few of the local experts to wear a button saying ‘Ask me’.

The idea was that we’d take questions and do our best to provide helpful answers

A few people would ask for my advice on what to do.I’d give it to them, explaining why. And they’d start arguing with me, convinced that I was wrong.

Here, you invited comments on the bidding. I think you were hoping for criticism of the 5D call or reassurance that you were unlucky.

It turns out that everyone thinks you made a bad overcall, you asked me to explain, so I did (as did others), and your response is not to try to learn but to tell us how wrong we all are.

I’ve got news for you. When players more knowledgeable and skilled at this game tell you where you went wrong….listen to them!

Or quit wasting our time. You don’t want to become a better player? Fine…I don’t care. Just please stop asking me to spend my time answering your questions…you appear to think that the only views worth listening to are yours.

Have fun with that, though I doubt I’ll see you in Salsmaggiore in March��

Douglas43, on 2021-October-08, 09:37, said:

-500 is still worse than any nonvul game and only better than a 23 HCP slam the other way which is odds against being bid.

johnu, on 2021-October-08, 16:33, said:

Sorry, you are right, it's love all

mikl_plkcc, on 2021-October-08, 15:29, said:

The 2D overcall is borderline.
Your given min. hand would not be considered to be a reasonable 2D overcall by most, due to the 5332 shape and the less than opening value strength,
5332 with 9HCP is not an opening, except a weak 2D.
One big issue being, your partner did not yet have the chance to bid.
If you are unhappy with the 5D raise, imagine, you made the overcall with a bit more shape / strength, you will quite often see, that 300 would be the
out come, do you ask partner in this case, why did he NOT bid 5D?
The thing is, you opt for very agressive 2 level overcalls, they score sometimes, they loose sometimes. Very agressive means very volatile, if you are
unhappy with the lowes thighten up.

Looking at the traveler, the top score for your axis went to a pair, that was lucky to get a East/West pair, which forgot to double 5D, after they forgot
double the cashed number of tricks lost meaning.
Your near bottom score was a bit unlucky due to the fact, that you got a East/West pair, that was able to score their club ruff.

With kind regards
Marlowe