[Stephen Tu]

I think it's a bit suicidal for opener to reopen 1nt with 15-17 and 2nt with 18-19. Why do I want to play 1nt with 15 opposite a 3 count, or 2nt with 18 opposite a 3 count? IMO re-opening 1nt should be 17-19 bal; with 15-16 dbl with shortness pass with length. Responder should be aggressive bidding 1nt/other minor/doubling/raising if he really doesn't want to defend 1M facing 15-16 with length.

Over 1H overcall one can play things such as x = 4+ spades, 1s = values without spades. Over 1S it's tougher, depending on how much you want to guarantee x having 4 hearts. Certainly there are hands that can fall through the cracks and you lose a partial swing. But your partner passing with an 11 count is nuts.

[rmnka447]

pescetom, on 2018-July-30, 14:35, said:

Partner's ire was about bidding NT with a 5 card minor and a 4 card major together, I imagine.
I wouldn't recommend that to Novice and Beginner, nor would I bother them with legacy systems however interesting.

Depending on the point locations, it's not unreasonable to open a weak NT with a 5-4-2-2 distribution. If the good chunk of the points are located in the doubletons, opening a weak NT is often right. In the hand in question, the points are located in the long suits, so 1 ♦ is preferable. Without interference, opener's rebid with the hand would normally be 2 ♦ to limit the hand as a minimum unbalanced hand unless responder bid 1 ♥. After a 1 ♥ response, opener has to raise to 2 ♥ even though the system expectation is that 2 ♥ shows 15-17 and 4 ♥.

The real culprit on the hand was the "Master" for bidding 2 ♣ with a 4 card suit. Had "Master" passed, the weak NT hand would rebid 2 ♦ to probably a much better result.

Typically if you're opening a weak 1 NT on a 5-4-2-2 hand, it's more like ♠ Kx ♥ KJxx ♦ Jxxxx ♣ Ax.

I normally wouldn't recommend that a newer player attempt to play KS. Some of the bidding agreements, especially in the minor suit opening auctions, can run a bit different than for the agreements in systems based on Standard American and strong NTs. It's much more than just changing to a different 1 NT range and assuming a Standard bidding structure still applies.

But I was answering a specific query on the KS system and wanted to make sure the right information was given.

[rigbyrigz]

rmnka447, on 2018-July-30, 17:48, said:

Depending on the point locations, it's not unreasonable to open a weak NT with a 5-4-2-2 distribution. If the good chunk of the points are located in the doubletons, opening a weak NT is often right. In the hand in question, the points are located in the long suits, so 1 ♦ is preferable. Without interference, opener's rebid with the hand would normally be 2 ♦ to limit the hand as a minimum unbalanced hand unless responder bid 1 ♥. After a 1 ♥ response, opener has to raise to 2 ♥ even though the system expectation is that 2 ♥ shows 15-17 and 4 ♥.

The real culprit on the hand was the "Master" for bidding 2 ♣ with a 4 card suit. Had "Master" passed, the weak NT hand would rebid 2 ♦ to probably a much better result.

Typically if you're opening a weak 1 NT on a 5-4-2-2 hand, it's more like ♠ Kx ♥ KJxx ♦ Jxxxx ♣ Ax.

I normally wouldn't recommend that a newer player attempt to play KS. Some of the bidding agreements, especially in the minor suit opening auctions, can run a bit different than for the agreements in systems based on Standard American and strong NTs. It's much more than just changing to a different 1 NT range and assuming a Standard bidding structure still applies.

But I was answering a specific query on the KS system and wanted to make sure the right information was given.

Yes, thank you. I like 1d then 2d more now than I did at the time, lol. I was "trained" to rebid 2 of a minor with 6, and commonly open 1d then rebid 2c with "many" 2-2-4-5... I see this is not as common nowadays as I think it once was. That's not exactly a KS issue, as the problem occurs in both ranges.

[rigbyrigz]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-July-30, 16:43, said:

I think it's a bit suicidal for opener to reopen 1nt with 15-17 and 2nt with 18-19. Why do I want to play 1nt with 15 opposite a 3 count, or 2nt with 18 opposite a 3 count? IMO re-opening 1nt should be 17-19 bal; with 15-16 dbl with shortness pass with length. Responder should be aggressive bidding 1nt/other minor/doubling if he really doesn't want to defend 1M facing 15-16 with length.

Over 1H overcall one can play things such as x = 4+ spades, 1s = values without spades. Over 1S it's tougher, depending on how much you want to guarantee x having 4 hearts. Certainly there are hands that can fall through the cracks and you lose a partial swing. But your partner passing with an 11 count is nuts.

Thank you for your reply; of course it mimics my thinking so I'm especially thankful, lol. I wonder if there is a definitive "standard" for the sequence in question. OFC if you do something 40 years an it works well for ya, all power to you and your approach; but doesn't exactly make it the de facto thing, if that's the right term. But i'm now more open to the reality "both" approaches might be "acceptable". (Although the 15-19 range makes me uncomfortable, as I would never do a 2n jump here (18-19) it's like asking for big trouble with little reward likely.)

[msjennifer]

Zelandakh, on 2017-June-19, 06:13, said:

I think the traditional "standard" agreements are 18-19 for i and iii and DNE for ii, though there is some potential for shading as noted by previous posters. With a strong NT in i or ii (passed partner) you either pass or double depending on shape, vulnerability and scoring. In iii a strong NT will usually double and the sequence - "1X - (P) - 1Y - (2Z); X" - is commonly dubbed the strong NT double for this reason.

and then when/how do you make a support double?

[helene_t]

Support doubles are not so popular in the UK. Most weak-NT pairs prefer to be able to double with some 15-17 balanced hands that don't (necessarily) have 3-card support.

[Winstonm]

Zelandakh, on 2017-June-19, 11:39, said:

DNE = does not exist.

What about the 7-6 hand?

[Tramticket]

helene_t, on 2018-July-31, 06:19, said:

Support doubles are not so popular in the UK. Most weak-NT pairs prefer to be able to double with some 15-17 balanced hands that don't (necessarily) have 3-card support.

I would put it more strongly: support doubles are a really bad idea with a Weak No Trump (particularly if playing four-card majors in a system where you open 1M before 1m).

Support doubles were invented to fill a weakness in the standard strong no trump / five-card major systems.

[mikeh]

Tramticket, on 2018-July-31, 09:18, said:

Support doubles were invented to fill a weakness in the standard strong no trump / five-card major systems.

No they weren't.

They were invented by Rodwell to fill a weakness in which his then-partner occasionally responded in a 3 card major.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2017-June-21, 23:28, said:

I am guessing you do not personally play a weak NT system. What I wrote in #4 is absolutely standard. It is certainly a drawback of WNT systems that the double performs this duty but much less so than being forced to rebid 2NT here.

Thi should is the thing I hate about weak NT, because obviously you may have to double with less if you are shapely. However the advantages are such that weak NT is by far my preferred system.

[Vampyr]

mikeh, on 2018-August-02, 09:34, said:

No they weren't.

They were invented by Rodwell to fill a weakness in which his then-partner occasionally responded in a 3 card major.

But Tram’s first point, that they work badly with a weak NT, is valid.

[Stephen Tu]

Do they work badly? If good enough for Kokish, good enough for me.