[helene_t]

Matchpoints, intermediate-advanced field

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For better or worse, we play that 4♦ by responder (after 3♦ or after 3NT) would be minorwood while 4♦ by opener (after 3♥) would be optional minorwood, i.e. responder can sign off in 4nt or 5♦ rather than ansswering if she has an unsuitable hand. Control bidding is first round but because of minorwood there is probably no way to initiate a control bidding sequence here. (Or maybe some would say it is possible?)

We don't usually make fake jump shifts on 3-card suits (in case we found the West hand a tad strong for 3♦).

Who, if anyone, should have done more? Should opener use the optional minorwood? I suppose you could say that if this hand doesn't qualify then we might as well scrap that convention? Or should responder have moved over 3NT?

[Cyberyeti]

I think with your agreements it's well nigh impossible to bid at MPs, and a gamble at IMPs.

You really don't want to be in 5m opposite QJ, K, KQ10xxxx, AKJ, and don't want to be in 4N opposite some hands like Ax, Kx, KQ10xxx, KJx where a heart lead could mean only 9 tricks in NT, telling which of 5m/4N you want to be in is quite tough.

[jogs]

On MSC these hands always seem to start:
1♦ - 1♠
3♣ - 3♦

Then it's off to the races.

[The_Badger]

hi helene_t

Firstly, can I say thank you for giving us commentators a complete overview of your possible bidding options in respect of this board. As it stands, I personally don't think you or your partner did too much wrong, given conventional restraints.

That West hand comes out at a hearty 20.45 on K&R. More an Acol strong two bid. Ah memories...

But all 16HCPs+ hands with long minors do come out above 16 points on distribution, so East should take the view I feel that slam is not far off, especially as he's holding ♦AJ.

Is 5♦ by East not an unreasonable bid after 3NT? Surely West then bids 6♦. Easy to say seeing the two hands but West is bidding 3♦ without a solid ♦ suit so he must have a lot of other beans elsewhere, probably shape too, so even without 12 tricks off the top, there's plenty of opportunities by way of squeezes, eliminations to make the slam on a slightly different West hand. If West turns up with ♥xxx that's unlucky, but also unlikely too.

Go for the top at matchpoints I feel.

[gszes]

This may be out of place for a :natural: bidding answer but what do you use 3h (by opener) after 1d 1s. Since 3n is gin opposite as little as !DA and JTxx hearts it hardly seems like an overbid to try a self splinter. Once that happens it all becomes responders fault if slam is not reached:) Caution is needed when using this type of bid, since you have to be willing to play 3n if responder bids it, so the self splinter is too scary to use with a hand like AQ x AKQJxxxx xx.

If unwilling or unable to use 3h this way I admit to being partial to 3c as it will rarely steer your side to the wrong strain and helps pinpoint an obvious problem for NT purposes.

[mike777]

Agree that west hand is just too good for 3d so 3c it is.

Have a sneaky admiration for trying 2c here rather than 3d but thats another story.

[masse24]

 gszes, on 2016-September-15, 12:04, said:

This may be out of place for a :natural: bidding answer but what do you use 3h (by opener) after 1d 1s. Since 3n is gin opposite as little as !DA and JTxx hearts it hardly seems like an overbid to try a self splinter. Once that happens it all becomes responders fault if slam is not reached:) Caution is needed when using this type of bid, since you have to be willing to play 3n if responder bids it, so the self splinter is too scary to use with a hand like AQ x AKQJxxxx xx.

If unwilling or unable to use 3h this way I admit to being partial to 3c as it will rarely steer your side to the wrong strain and helps pinpoint an obvious problem for NT purposes.

Splinter, yes. But a self-splinter? I would interpret it as a splinter showing ♠ support. Though I suppose (with prior agreement) you could specify it as a splinter for opener's suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

not forcing to game as opener is ok, it is a nice hand,
but you need a bit help in diamonds, and 11 tricks are
a lot. 3H is ok / normal as well.

Seeing x vx Qxxx in hears, I am second guessing 3NT, but
you play MP, and partner still did not promise anything
in diamonds, and we have a club stopper.

I am also pretty sure, I am not going to remove 3NT.
...............
We may (or may not) find the slam, but we have a 2NT rebid
to show hands like openers hand.
So all in all bad luck, lack of methods.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[rmnka447]

I don't see much wrong with the bidding at MPs. Responder could well have something like K10xxx KQ10x Jx Qx and 3NT is making 4 or 5 versus 5 ♦ making just 5.

Opener has a tough rebid -- making a "hasty" club jump shift or a simple 3 ♦ jump rebid. I'm not sure the jump shift helps you get any more info than the jump rebid. I wouldn't have a problem with opener making either bid. 3 NT seems virtually automatic over 3 ♥. I think responder should sit for 3 NT at MPs.

Bottom line -- no blame.

[jallerton]

 helene_t, on 2016-September-15, 06:10, said:

For better or worse, we play that 4♦ by responder (after 3♦ or after 3NT) would be minorwood while 4♦ by opener (after 3♥) would be optional minorwood, i.e. responder can sign off in 4nt or 5♦ rather than ansswering if she has an unsuitable hand.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't the response to Opener's 4♦ minorwood holding 2 key cards be 4NT? Could be tough if 4NT is also what Responder bids when trying to sign off!

 helene_t, on 2016-September-15, 06:10, said:

Matchpoints, intermediate-advanced field

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Control bidding is first round but because of minorwood there is probably no way to initiate a control bidding sequence here. (Or maybe some would say it is possible?)

We don't usually make fake jump shifts on 3-card suits (in case we found the West hand a tad strong for 3♦).

Who, if anyone, should have done more? Should opener use the optional minorwood? I suppose you could say that if this hand doesn't qualify then we might as well scrap that convention? Or should responder have moved over 3NT?

Opener should have done more. This is a proper Acol 2 in diamonds. It would be reasonable for Responder to pass the jump rebid holding xxxxx xxx A QJxx and +170 would be a bit embarrassing. Yes, I've constructed a perfect fit hand, but plenty of other weak hands opposite will make game.

You say that you don't like fake jump shifts, but this isn't particularly fake (10 cards in the minors partner); if partner raises to 4♣ you have the option to jump to 5♦.

On the actual Responding hand, she should bid 3♦ over 3♣ (see previous thread). Would 1♦-1♠-3♣-3♦-4♦ be optional Minorwood?

[msjennifer]

My personal feeling is that 3D,which is a NFB as played by most,when holding 5 high card controls outside diamonds plus a singleton in a suit not bid by partner,is an underbid.And the 3 NT bid over 3H is worse,when P has shown life.I would bid 4C and then, 4S if partner bids 4D.Rest depends upon partner as I have shown my hand fully.

[helene_t]

 jallerton, on 2016-September-15, 15:59, said:

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but wouldn't the response to Opener's 4♦ minorwood holding 2 key cards be 4NT? Could be tough if 4NT is also what Responder bids when trying to sign off ......

 Would 1♦-1♠-3♣-3♦-4♦ be optional Minorwood?

yes that's a problem. we play 5c as showing two keycards so we can't show the queen here.

yes that sequence is omw also

[Cyberyeti]

Just a thought, if you play 4♦ over 3N as minorwood, how about 4♣ as a general diamond agreeing slam try.

[nekthen]

I dislike 3♥. It gives the wrong message to p. We could easily be going down in 3N and I want p to take a rosy view of a singleton ♥, which he does not do after 3♥. That leaves me with 3♠ shows interest and the 5th♠. It is still possible that 4♠ is a better spot than ♦ or NT. P can now bid 4♦ optional minorwood, we bid 4♠. Presumably, showing one ace and enthusiasm for ♦, and p bids the slam.

What would be the minimum that p can have for 3♦? I have had random BBO partners who think that any opening hand with 6♦ has to be rebid with 3♦

BTW I would open with a multi 2♦ as it includes 9 playing tricks in a minor

[Caitlynne]

East should have done more, but your less than optimal methods seem to have rendered this an intractable problem.

I see nothing wrong with the auction through opener's 3NT bid. In standard, this is easy: responder continues with 4D. The Queen of clubs must be a good card as opener surely has a double stop in clubs - at worst KJx. Now, after 4D, opener has an easy 4S cue bid, responder will either wait with 4N or bid 5D if 4N would ask for Aces or key cards, and opener, having control of hearts and AK of clubs, has an easy bid of 6D.

One of the many constructive sequence weaknesses in standard is opener's jump rebid repeating his/her minor suit as this can obscure 3 card support for responder's major. So the new suit force of 3H is not made so much to explore for a fit (that cannot be present after opener's rebid), but rather to either check on 3 card support for responder's major or explore for NT. Responder does not appear to have kept this in mind. AJ was SUPER good support on this auction, the Queen of clubs was clearly a working card, and the value of the hand for slamming clearly depends on the value of King of spades. Responder should recognize and appreciate that, if that King is working and opener has a heart control, slam must be a very good bet.

[forgo]

being really old and playing old school bridge, 3 diam shows 15 or 16 and nice 6 card suit.. therefore I would make a bid of
3clubs on this hand.... p will still bid 3 hearts.. after a 4 diamond bid by me, we will surely find slam!! I

[forgo]

being really old and playing old school bridge, 3 diam shows 15 or 16 and nice 6 card suit.. therefore I would make a bid of
3clubs on this hand.... p will still bid 3 hearts.. after a 4 diamond bid by me, we will surely find slam!! I

[miamijd]

 forgo, on 2016-September-16, 12:21, said:

being really old and playing old school bridge, 3 diam shows 15 or 16 and nice 6 card suit.. therefore I would make a bid of
3clubs on this hand.... p will still bid 3 hearts.. after a 4 diamond bid by me, we will surely find slam!! I

Old-school bridge is that 3D shows 16-18 and good diamonds (6+). In fact, that's generally new-school, too. With 15, you just rebid 2D, and to make a jump shift forcing to game, you need 19.

I don't see a lot wrong with the auction; sometimes it's hard to find slams like these. Minorwood does you no favors on this auction, however, which is why Kickback is more popular.

Query: how do you play 3H here? Natural? Artificial force? I think natural is the most common treatment, but I like to play artificial strong force, on the grounds that opener is highly unlikely to have 4H (he would have reversed, not bid 3D); if responder has no slam interest with 54, he can just bid 3NT; and if responder is 5-5 strong, he can start with 3H artificial. This treatment works particularly well if you play Reverse Flannery responses to 1C and 1D (which I do with my regular pds).

If 3H is an artificial force with a strongish hand, I think all roads will lead to 6D.

[amre_man]

My regular partner would not bid 3♥ without 'something'. Is my 4 loser hand and 7 card ♦ suit too strong to stop at 3NT? I would be content to play in ♦ game. If, rather than 3NT, Opener rebids 4♣ (FSF) over 3♥, would that be considered a cue? First/second round controls up the line will find the slam?

On a personal note, I have a 4 loser hand and would have opened 2♣. In my agreements this is not a game forcing bid but my partner would certainly be evaluating his hand in a different manner.

[Phil]

West is just a bit too heavy for 3D. I'd say the new school dictates the call a stiff and a very good suit.

1D 1S
3C 3H
3N 4D

Looks like the right start to me.