[Liversidge]

Partner and I have started playing Michaels and the Unusual No Trump. Most references I can find say not to use the UNT in fourth position after two passes, but don't say why. I am guessing that the rationale is that an immediate jump overcall in No Trumps shows around 20 HCP balanced with a stop, which is going to be very infrequent after an opponent has opened, freeing up the bid for a two suited overcall. But in the protective position it I assume the 2NT overcall can be used non-conventionally with a weaker balanced hand - say around 17 HCP balanced, which is more likely to crop up, so it is not such a good idea to give it up for the UNT convention. Is that it?

[ArtK78]

No. 2NT is balancing seat typically shows 20-21 or so. With a 15-18 balanced hand in balancing seat, most double and bid 1NT, as 1NT directly shows 11-14.

With both minors in balancing seat, one would not balance unless one has a good hand. With something like

xx
x
KJxxx
QJxxx

one could very well pass out a 1 of a major opening by LHO out of fear that LHO has a very strong hand and the opps have missed a game. Partner could not act in direct seat. Partner may have a good hand with opener's major suit, but that doesn't mean that your side can make anything.

[NickRW]

One should also note that the 2NT as natural (and not unusual) in 4th seat only applies when it is dealer who opened and therefore you are literally in 4th seat, not simply being in the protective seat having passed already. If you've passed and LHO opens and this is then passed back to you, obviously you can't have a natural 2NT, so you're back into being able to use the unusual NT.

[1eyedjack]

Basically, as above. But the reason is that you have to try to shoe-horn a wider range of balanced hands into your NT overcalling structure when balancing than when in direct seat. With 11-14 HCP in direct seat you would typically pass and await developments. Maybe partner can balance. Maybe the opponents will keep the auction live and give you another chance to decide to come in. Overcalling 11-14 1NT in direct seat is a dangerous act. At least one opponent has shown strength at least as good as you and opener's partner is unlimited. If they have a lucrative penalty double available they are well placed to find it.

By contrast in the pass-out seat, RHO has already shown a very weak hand indeed, and while LHO could be very powerful, the odds in favour of acting, combined with the potential cost of passing and unilaterally closing the auction, make it more attractive to bid (still not entirely risk free, mind). So, if you have to find a way to bid balanced hands with 11+ points in 4th seat but only need to have ways to show 15+ in direct seat, it is not hard to understand why it is more helpful in 4th seat to have 2NT show a balanced hand.

[nige1]

Liversidge, on 2015-May-27, 04:26, said:

Partner and I have started playing Michaels and the Unusual No Trump. Most references I can find say not to use the UNT in fourth position after two passes, but don't say why. I am guessing that the rationale is that an immediate jump overcall in No Trumps shows around 20 HCP balanced with a stop, which is going to be very infrequent after an opponent has opened, freeing up the bid for a two suited overcall. But in the protective position it I assume the 2NT overcall can be used non-conventionally with a weaker balanced hand - say around 17 HCP balanced, which is more likely to crop up, so it is not such a good idea to give it up for the UNT convention. Is that it?

In 4th seat, most partnerships agree that a 2N overcall is natural (flat with about 19 points). As NickRW points out, however, unless you are in 4th seat, a protective 2N is still unusual (you wouldn't pass earlier, holding a powerhouse).

UNT in 4th seat is an uncommon agreement, so you should probably ignore it. For your interest, however, my partner and I do play UNT in 4th seat (for consistency) and it seems to work OK. When protecting we lean over backwards to double, because a common occurrence is that partner passed with a good hand and values in opener's suit. For us, a 4th seat 1N overcall is 15-18 rather than the orthodox 11-14. Agreements such as ours are not worth bothering about for casual play.

[Cyberyeti]

Liversidge, on 2015-May-27, 04:26, said:

Partner and I have started playing Michaels and the Unusual No Trump. Most references I can find say not to use the UNT in fourth position after two passes, but don't say why. I am guessing that the rationale is that an immediate jump overcall in No Trumps shows around 20 HCP balanced with a stop, which is going to be very infrequent after an opponent has opened, freeing up the bid for a two suited overcall. But in the protective position it I assume the 2NT overcall can be used non-conventionally with a weaker balanced hand - say around 17 HCP balanced, which is more likely to crop up, so it is not such a good idea to give it up for the UNT convention. Is that it?

The point is made already, that a lot of your typical 2nd seat 2N bids want to pass this out as opps are probably either making game or it's a big misfit.

It would not be silly to play a 4th seat unpassed hand 2N over 1M as a good hand 5-5 in the minors, but most people including us play it as strong balanced, the exact range varies by partnership.

[steve2005]

In 4th seat balancing I have one competitive bidding book which uses a cue-bid as any strong 2-suiter. Including, <edit> lower 2 unbid., top & bottom </edit> and Michaels type hands.

Theory is with a weaker 2 suiter you could pass or make a simple overcall.

Anyone heard of this?

[blackshoe]

steve2005, on 2015-May-27, 08:02, said:

In 4th seat balancing I have one competitive bidding book which uses a cue-bid as any strong 2-suiter. Including, minors and Michaels type hands.

Theory is with a weaker 2 suiter you could pass or make a simple overcall.

Anyone heard of this?

Heard of it, never played it.

Mike Lawrence suggests that a balancing 1NT should start at 12 HCP and have a variable upper limit depending on the suit of the opening bid. So over 1♣ it's 12-14 and over 1♠ it's 12-16. This means that doubling and then bidding 1NT has a variable lower limit, 15 over a club, 17 over a spade. The upper limit would be 18 in all cases, I think. So 2NT logically is 19-20, and doubling and then bidding 2NT is 21-22. You need the narrow ranges when bidding 2NT, so you need the immediate 2NT bid to be natural, or your ladder only reaches 20 points. I don't know what the odds are that fourth seat will have more than 20 points when LHO opens at the one level, but presumably they're high enough that extending your ladder to some point above 20 is worth doing.

[mycroft]

Also, remember that after p-1x-p-1y; not only can you not have a balanced 19, you probably don't have a balanced 12, or balanced 11-that-wants-to-come-in, or you would have opened. So you don't need to jump to 2NT to be "unusual". 1NT is sufficiently unusual to get the point across.

Do make sure if you do this that partner is on the same page. My first board with a new partner in a midnight game did exactly this, and she raised me (after more bidding) to 2NT. Because it was a midnight game, or the Bridge Luck was on my side, I made it. "You did know that was the other two suits, right?" "No, why?" "Well, I *did* pass..." "oh right".

[jeffford76]

steve2005, on 2015-May-27, 08:02, said:

In 4th seat balancing I have one competitive bidding book which uses a cue-bid as any strong 2-suiter. Including, <edit> lower 2 unbid., top & bottom </edit> and Michaels type hands.

Theory is with a weaker 2 suiter you could pass or make a simple overcall.

Anyone heard of this?

It's not unreasonable. I like to play it as the old-fashioned cue bid, basically any hand that would be sick if partner passed the takeout double.

[Liversidge]

Thanks for that clear explanation!

[The It]

We like to call it the Tom Jones 2NT


It's not unusual.

[zillahandp]

The first thing you need to do is agree with p the difference between UNT and michaels eg strength, controls 2nt can never be natural in acol as an overcall, then you need to define your responses, weak, constructive or forcing, never play a convention unless you have defined as best you can how you will use it when, and what the responses mean. Take a random selection of hands and say what if the bidding goes like this and I/you bid this convention. My advice would be spend more time learning how to play the cards, esp in defence.BoL

[m1cha]

Another reason not mentioned so far: In balancing position you may use an overcall to show any combination of two-suiters. This is not permitted in second seat because a call not showing a known suit after an opening of one of a suit constitutes a brown-sticker convention and would be banned in most tournaments.

(Unfortunately I'm not sure if this is completely true in ACBL land.)

[helene_t]

m1cha, on 2015-May-29, 09:21, said:

Another reason not mentioned so far: In balancing position you may use an overcall to show any combination of two-suiters. This is not permitted in second seat because a call not showing a known suit after an opening of one of a suit constitutes a brown-sticker convention and would be banned in most tournaments.

(Unfortunately I'm not sure if this is completely true in ACBL land.)

OP is from EBU land in which the regulations (for level 4) are slightly more liberal then the BSC criterion but for this purpose you are right: A non-jump cuebid which doesn't show a lot of strength and shows any two-suiter is allowed in balancing seat (where everything is allowed) but not in direct seat.

[blackshoe]

ACBL regulations don't really address the question of seats.

[mycroft]

GCC, Competitive, 1: COMPETITIVE BALANCING CALLS. :-)

[blackshoe]

It's "CONVENTIONAL BALANCING CALLS" and all it says is that any convention is legal when balancing. There's no mention of third or fourth seat openers, nor differentiation of competition when both opponents have bid.

[mycroft]

I absolutely agree with the latter - the only thing that is stated for that I can see quickly is the Drury Exemption (which applies to both sides - I'm not sure how you bid 2m to ask your opponent the quality of her opening, though (*) :-). Sorry for misreading you.

But the issue at hand was "In balancing position you may use an overcall to show any combination of two-suiters." and that meets Balancing calls.

It is interesting that p-p-p-1♠; 1NT (for instance) has no special exemptions for what's allowed; I can't imagine why I haven't noticed that before now.

(*) I guess p-1♥-1♠-p; 2♣ "do you really have your overcall, or are you lead-directing?"

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2015-May-29, 10:12, said:

ACBL regulations don't really address the question of seats.

In some cases they do. Isn't it (bizarrely) the case that you can play Drury or Drury-fit only when you are a passed hand?