[han]

I suggest the following convention as an improvement over 4th suit forcing, Bourke Relay and XYZ:

New Suit Invitational.

After opener has made a simple rebid in a constructive auctions, reponders rebid in the cheapest unbid suit
is artificial and shows either a simple rebid in his/her first suit or any invitational hand. Opener usually bids
responder's first suit, but may bid otherwise with strong hands or exceptional shape. Responders rebid of his/her
suit is natural and invitational. All other bids are natural and gameforcing.

Examples: (I will assume in all cases that the partnership plays reverse flannery, so that responder can't
be weak or invitational with 5+ spades and 4+ hearts)

1D-1S
2C-..
-> 2D = simple preference.
-> 2H = either weak with long spades or any invitational hand (except for spades).
-> 2S = natural, invitational.
-> 2NT = natural, gameforcing (may have 5 spades).
-> 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S: natural, gameforcing.

1D-1S
2D-..
all bids as above, except that 2D is not available.

1D-1H
2D-..
->2H = to play.
->2S= exception: any invitation except balanced (opener can bid non-forcing 2NT or 3D,
else bid 3C to find out)
-> all higher bids: natural gameforce.

1C-1H
1S-..
->1NT, 2C = nonforcing.
-> 2D = either weak with long hearts, or any invitation (except hearts).
-> 2H = natural, invitational.
-> 2S = exception: simple raise (you do need this).
-> 2NT, 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S: natural, gameforcing.

1D-1H
1NT-..
-> 2C = either weak with diamonds (!) or any invitation (except diamonds).
-> 2D = invitational.
-> 2H = to play.
-> higher: natural, gameforcing.

It seems to me that this is a clear improvement over the nebulous 4th suit gameforce. It might not
be better than XYZ or other structures over 1X-1Y-1NT, but I like it because it's basically the same over
all sequences. Any comments?

[Flame]

I agree with the concept, you can check ambra for more details.
ambra play 2c over a rebid of 1, and ur kind of relay over 2 level rebid.

[Fasteddy]

I think what it boils down to is whether you have a hand that needs to learn more from opener or whether you just want to further describe your own hand. Say you hold AQJxx xxx Kx KJx. After 1D-1S-2C, you'd much rather learn whether partner has spade support, hearts stopped, or a fifth club than make a forcing bid that misdescribes your own hand.

In a third-suit auction, e.g., 1D-1S; 2D, the Bourke Relay says the cheapest unbid suit is an artifical game force while any other nonjump is natural and (except for 2S) invitational. It's reasonable to reverse the forcing and nonforcing meanings as you suggest, but again you may want to learn more about partner's hand than to further describe your own. What forcing rebid would you make with the hand above after 1D-1S; 2D?

[han]

Fasteddy, on Feb 16 2005, 05:13 PM, said:

I think what it boils down to is whether you have a hand that needs to learn more from opener or whether you just want to further describe your own hand. Say you hold AQJxx xxx Kx KJx. After 1D-1S-2C, you'd much rather learn whether partner has spade support, hearts stopped, or a fifth club than make a forcing bid that misdescribes your own hand.

In a third-suit auction, e.g., 1D-1S; 2D, the Bourke Relay says the cheapest unbid suit is an artifical game force while any other nonjump is natural and (except for 2S) invitational. It's reasonable to reverse the forcing and nonforcing meanings as you suggest, but again you may want to learn more about partner's hand than to further describe your own. What forcing rebid would you make with the hand above after 1D-1S; 2D?

Good point. I would bid 3C, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing it.

Of course, you would have the same problem with a slightly weaker hand using fourth suit forcing.

[Flame]

I misread part of the idea. Ambra uses the next bid to as a relay but not allowing a weak transfer hand. Since i cant read polish im not sure but in WJ2005 there is a future that look like ur idea, when 4th suit is a transfer.
Anyway it sound cool.

[han]

Flame, on Feb 16 2005, 06:36 PM, said:

I misread part of the idea. Ambra uses the next bid to as a relay but not allowing a weak transfer hand. Since i cant read polish im not sure but in WJ2005 there is a future that look like ur idea, when 4th suit is a transfer.
Anyway it sound cool.

Hi Flame,

I'm not claiming that this idea is originally mine. In fact, I started talking about it with a regular partner (fasteddy above) some years ago after Danny Kleinman's articles on the "tell principle". We did't really manage to make it work at that time, but I had this idea this week, it seems to fit together now.

Our first idea (actually Ed's idea) was just to switch invitational and gameforcing. Then opener should bid the cheapest suit in which he wouldn't accept an invitation. This gets really ugly when opener has extras, and responder might not be able to show his hand.

I think that the above structure works much better.

[Cascade]

Hannie, on Feb 17 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

1D-1H
2D-..
->2H = to play.
->2S= exception: any invitation except balanced (opener can bid non-forcing 2NT or 3D,
else bid 3C to find out)
-> all higher bids: natural gameforce.

What am I missing?

What do you do with invitational balanced hands?

[Flame]

Didnt mean to say you stole it, just usually when i think of something i like fiding someone else preferably at a top level who play it, because expirence is better then any thoretical logic.

[Flame]

I'll tell you what my problem with this appraoch is.
1d-1s-2c
opener showed 9 cards and limited his strengh, responder showed 4 cards and hes unlimited, imo it make more sense to use 2h as a relay to continue opener's hand discription (like they do in ambra) then try to show responder's hand.
Squzing in the weak one suiter hand is nice, but when opner is 5-4 in 2 suits or 6 in 1 suit, there is less need for that, we can play in opener suit and be just fine.
This is especially true for someone like me who play weak jump shifts.

[han]

Cascade, on Feb 16 2005, 07:48 PM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 17 2005, 09:20 AM, said:

1D-1H
2D-..
->2H = to play.
->2S= exception: any invitation except balanced (opener can bid non-forcing 2NT or 3D,
else bid 3C to find out)
-> all higher bids: natural gameforce.

What am I missing?

What do you do with invitational balanced hands?

good catch. it should be any balanced. You pass if opener bids 2NT. If opener wants to accept a balanced invite then bid 3C.

[han]

Flame, on Feb 16 2005, 08:23 PM, said:

I'll tell you what my problem with this appraoch is.
1d-1s-2c
opener showed 9 cards and limited his strengh, responder showed 4 cards and hes unlimited, imo it make more sense to use 2h as a relay to continue opener's hand discription (like they do in ambra) then try to show responder's hand.
Squzing in the weak one suiter hand is nice, but when opner is 5-4 in 2 suits or 6 in 1 suit, there is less need for that, we can play in opener suit and be just fine.
This is especially true for someone like me who play weak jump shifts.

This is very true. But how often have you been opener holding xx Qx AQxxx KQxx, and the auction goes 1D-1S-2C-2H? Or even worse, x xxx AKQxx AJxx? You are stuck.

And how many times have you been responder, trying to show your gameforcing club raise after 1D-1S-2C by bidding fourth suit, only to find opener "patterning out" with 3D?


I absolutely agree with you that top experience is more important than theoretical nonsense. I don't have any experience playing at the top level, so I hope to hear what the hotshots think about this treatment .

[pclayton]

I've written up an article on this (hey - didnt' I post something about this a few months ago? )

I've focused on the 2 level rebids by Opener. The 'next (new) suit (NNS)' works well with a 2♣ or 2♦ rebid. After a 2♥ rebid (1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥), 2N works best. You can use this 'puppet' to get out in 3 of a minor too. The forcing 3 level bids are great too. The responses to the NNS get a little tricky, but it can function close to the 2♣ call in xyz.

Even though I'm ready to submit this to BW, frankly, I'm not 100% convinced about the idea. I've been watching for hands that apply and sometimes the auctions get a little bulky.

[Flame]

Hannie, on Feb 16 2005, 10:46 PM, said:

This is very true. But how often have you been opener holding xx Qx AQxxx KQxx, and the auction goes 1D-1S-2C-2H? Or even worse, x xxx AKQxx AJxx? You are stuck.

And how many times have you been responder, trying to show your gameforcing club raise after 1D-1S-2C by bidding fourth suit, only to find opener "patterning out" with 3D?

Good points

[cherdano]

The idea is really nice, but I am not yet convinced that it is an improvement over Richard Pavlicek's treatment. I will assume a 1x-1y-2z (non-reverse) auction, as I am too happy with xyz to even consider giving it up :

• 4th suit forcing is at least invitational (can be GF with a hand that needs to learn more about openers hand)
  
• direct (jump) raises or rebids to the 3-level are GF
  
• 2-level bids that are not new suit are non-forcing
  
• 2 NT is natural GF.

E.g. after 1♦-1♠-1♣, responder would bid 2♥-?-3♠ to show an invitational hand with 6 spades. What I am not quite sure about is whether his 4th suit bid promises a rebid.

Arend

[inquiry]

Hi...

I play "Reverse flannery by responder" combined with new suit by opener forcing, and a jump to 2NT ove 1m-1M- as strong major raise. This leads to a lot of ambigious 1D-1S-2C- auctions where the club bidder might have clubs, might not have clubs but rather be balanced 17-19 or semibalanced in that range but with 3 card support.

We have used 2♥ as one round force (not game force), to show some values and to find out more about openers hand (balanced? minor two suiter weak?, delayed three card support?), and rebid 2♠ instead of 2♥ as a sign of weakness... In looking at problem hands, it is clear that this idea where an immediate 2♠ rebid is an invite with spades, and a 2♥ is either weak with spades or game invite seems a nice improvement. I am going to give this a try. Thanks.

Ben

[helene_t]

This is similar to my idea (Strong jump as 2nd response) but I like your idea better. If
1♦-1♠
2♣-2♥*
is a.o. weak with spades, opener will usually bid 2♠, thereby giving responder room to show his hand.

[han]

pclayton, on Feb 17 2005, 01:41 AM, said:

I've written up an article on this (hey - didnt' I post something about this a few months ago? )

I've focused on the 2 level rebids by Opener. The 'next (new) suit (NNS)' works well with a 2♣ or 2♦ rebid. After a 2♥ rebid (1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥), 2N works best. You can use this 'puppet' to get out in 3 of a minor too. The forcing 3 level bids are great too. The responses to the NNS get a little tricky, but it can function close to the 2♣ call in xyz.

Even though I'm ready to submit this to BW, frankly, I'm not 100% convinced about the idea. I've been watching for hands that apply and sometimes the auctions get a little bulky.

Right, I forgot about that, I think that this is the thread you mean:

http://forums.bridge...wtopic=5829&hl=

There is another thread where you announce the coming of the above thread .

Though your idea is slightly different than mine, the idea is similar: 4th suit forcing often gives awkward sequences, and this can be improved. Has the BW accepted your article yet? I would be interested in seeing a complete write-up.

[han]

cherdano, on Feb 17 2005, 09:38 AM, said:

The idea is really nice, but I am not yet convinced that it is an improvement over Richard Pavlicek's treatment. I will assume a 1x-1y-2z (non-reverse) auction, as I am too happy with xyz to even consider giving it up :

• 4th suit forcing is at least invitational (can be GF with a hand that needs to learn more about openers hand)
  
• direct (jump) raises or rebids to the 3-level are GF
  
• 2-level bids that are not new suit are non-forcing
  
• 2 NT is natural GF.

E.g. after 1♦-1♠-1♣, responder would bid 2♥-?-3♠ to show an invitational hand with 6 spades. What I am not quite sure about is whether his 4th suit bid promises a rebid.

Arend

Whether this idea is an improvement of Pavlicek's treatment I don't know, it seems similar in flavor. The fourth suit invitational or better can lead to awkward sequences though, just as the normal fourth suit can. Consider the auction 1D-1S-2C-2H. Opener is supposed to describe her hand, but if she rebids 3D, responder would no longer be able to show a balanced imvite or club raise.