[kgr]

Belgium
A friend a me told that they play:

P-1M
2C-2M

2C=Drury
2M=Partner you have to pass!!
They can easily psych 1M. When responder has 11 pnts with a 5cM he will still pass.
Is this allowed?
Is it allowed if 1M is alerted with explanation?: often a psych.
Is it allowed without this alert/explanation?

[ArtK78]

Drury is legal. A rebid of 2 of the major showing a weak opening is legal.

Drury is essentially the only form of psychic control that is legal. But it is not usually referred to as a psychic control.

[ahydra]

It's not a psyche if they start doing it regularly - it becomes an agreement. And there are normally rules like "you can't agree to open 1M with less than X HCP" (I think X = 9 in the EBU). So they might fall foul of that.

If it turns out they don't, then certainly they must alert if their 1M can be very weak.

ahydra

[TylerE]

The thing I've never quite understood is this discussion - what exactly does "doing it regularly" mean? Once a session? Once a month? Twice ever?

[gnasher]

ArtK78, on 2013-June-13, 10:01, said:

Drury is legal. A rebid of 2 of the major showing a weak opening is legal.

Drury is essentially the only form of psychic control that is legal.

Which page of the Belgian regulations is that on?

[barmar]

ahydra, on 2013-June-13, 10:19, said:

It's not a psyche if they start doing it regularly - it becomes an agreement. And there are normally rules like "you can't agree to open 1M with less than X HCP" (I think X = 9 in the EBU). So they might fall foul of that.

How common is that type of rule? ACBL doesn't have any restriction on how light your natural openings can be, except that if 1NT can be lighter than 10 HCP you can't play any conventional responses and rebids to it. If you routinely open 1 of a suit lighter than 11 HCP you have to pre-alert it, but no one considers that doing it only in 3rd seat constitutes "routinely".

[TylerE]

barmar, on 2013-June-13, 13:03, said:

How common is that type of rule? ACBL doesn't have any restriction on how light your natural openings can be, except that if 1NT can be lighter than 10 HCP you can't play any conventional responses and rebids to it. If you routinely open 1 of a suit lighter than 11 HCP you have to pre-alert it, but no one considers that doing it only in 3rd seat constitutes "routinely".

Actually...

From the GCC

Quote

1. Conventions and/or agreements whose primary purpose is to destroy the
opponents’ methods

...

6. Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show fewer than 8
HCP. (Not applicable to a psych.)

[FrancesHinden]

barmar, on 2013-June-13, 13:03, said:

How common is that type of rule? ACBL doesn't have any restriction on how light your natural openings can be, except that if 1NT can be lighter than 10 HCP you can't play any conventional responses and rebids to it. If you routinely open 1 of a suit lighter than 11 HCP you have to pre-alert it, but no one considers that doing it only in 3rd seat constitutes "routinely".

It's in the WBF regulations, for example.
In the EBU, n=8 in 3rd & 4th seat.

[FrancesHinden]

kgr, on 2013-June-13, 09:58, said:

Belgium
A friend a me told that they play:

P-1M
2C-2M

2C=Drury
2M=Partner you have to pass!!
They can easily psych 1M. When responder has 11 pnts with a 5cM he will still pass.
Is this allowed?
Is it allowed if 1M is alerted with explanation?: often a psych.
Is it allowed without this alert/explanation?

As has already been said, if it is done regularly it isnt a psyche, it's an agreement.
It's then a matter of the rules on 3rd seat 1M openings in Belgium. In England, you have to agree that a 1M opening shows 4+ cards in the major opened and 8+ HCP in 3rd seat. So you could agree to open 1S on J432 Kx Kx Jxxxx and play 2S over Drury as partner you have to pass, and that is legal (as long as it is disclosed properly). But you can't agree to open 1M on KQJ109 xx xx xxxx, although you could do it as a once off.

[ArtK78]

gnasher, on 2013-June-13, 10:58, said:

Which page of the Belgian regulations is that on?

Its on the back of the first page.

[gnasher]

ArtK78, on 2013-June-13, 13:20, said:

Its on the back of the first page.

You mean the bit that says that psychic controls are Brown Sticker?

[kgr]

ahydra, on 2013-June-13, 10:19, said:

It's not a psyche if they start doing it regularly - it becomes an agreement. And there are normally rules like "you can't agree to open 1M with less than X HCP" (I think X = 9 in the EBU). So they might fall foul of that.

If it turns out they don't, then certainly they must alert if their 1M can be very weak.

ahydra

If they open 1♥ in 3rd hand with f.i.: KJx=x=Qxxx=xxxxx
(Suppose Brown sticker conventions and psyches are allowed).
Given the conditions: one of the players told me that it is a good psych; when partner bids 2C - Drury - then he always has to pass a 2H rebid. They already did this before and opps were surprised that partner passed the 2M with 5c support, 11HCP and extra distribution.
Do you consider this as a partnership agreement or as a psych?
If partnership agreement: what alert (pre-alert) is needed?

[aguahombre]

I would like to know if they still rebid 2H with their 3-1-4-5 six-count when Drury bidder doesn't have 5 hearts.

[gnasher]

kgr, on 2013-June-14, 09:06, said:

If they open 1♥ in 3rd hand with f.i.: KJx=x=Qxxx=xxxxx
(Suppose Brown sticker conventions and psyches are allowed).
Given the conditions: one of the players told me that it is a good psych; when partner bids 2C - Drury - then he always has to pass a 2H rebid. They already did this before and opps were surprised that partner passed the 2M with 5c support, 11HCP and extra distribution.
Do you consider this as a partnership agreement or as a psych?

It's a partnership agreement. They've agreed that the Drury bidder has to pass 2♥ or 2♠, and they've agreed that they do this to cater for a psyche.

[kgr]

aguahombre, on 2013-June-14, 09:19, said:

I would like to know if they still rebid 2H with their 3-1-4-5 six-count when Drury bidder doesn't have 5 hearts.

How would opener know that drury bidder does not have 5cH?
I assume that any other bid promises extras, so opener does not really have a choice.

[campboy]

kgr, on 2013-June-14, 10:44, said:

I assume that any other bid promises extras, so opener does not really have a choice.

What's wrong with pass?

Anyway, 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ shows a minimum. If the minimum they claim they've agreed for 1♥ a) is legal and b) is sufficiently weak that no passed hand will want to be in game opposite it, then that seems fine. But if what they claim is the minimum would likely be enough for game but responder doesn't bid on and it turns out opener has less than the alleged minimum, that's strong evidence of a concealed partnership understanding.

[TylerE]

kgr, on 2013-June-14, 10:44, said:

How would opener know that drury bidder does not have 5cH?
I assume that any other bid promises extras, so opener does not really have a choice.

Because for the kind of pairs for whom this sort of thing is an issue, they're opening 11 counts with 5M in 1st/2nd so that's a pretty tiny sliver of their range and less they are using Drury really light.

[aguahombre]

kgr, on 2013-June-14, 10:44, said:

How would opener know that drury bidder does not have 5cH?

rhetorical question, or missing my real point

[blackshoe]

If I psyched a 1♥ opening on a 3-1-4-5 six count in third seat, I'd pass partner's 2♣ Drury, whatever our agreements said. But then, I have partners who tell me "if you ever psych, I won't play with you again".

[Cascade]

ArtK78, on 2013-June-13, 10:01, said:

Drury is legal. A rebid of 2 of the major showing a weak opening is legal.

Drury is essentially the only form of psychic control that is legal. But it is not usually referred to as a psychic control.

Even in the US under the GCC Drury is not allowed to be used as a psychic control. Here is the relevant wording:

Drury

Quote

TWO CLUBS OR TWO DIAMONDS response to third or fourth-seat majorsuit
openings asking the quality of the opening bid.

Psychic Controls under "Disallowed"

Quote

Psychic controls (Includes ANY partnership agreement which, if used in
conjunction with a psychic call, makes allowance for that psych.)

The emphasis of "ANY" is theirs not mine.

I would rule against any pair who used Drury in conjunction with a psychic call.

If it is not a psychic call then it is subject to the other provisions of the regulations, which will often mean that the pair are playing illegal methods.