[alphred]

Hi all
In situations where slam seems a possibility, many players in my surroundings ask for aces with 4C and for kings with 4NT.
I have never seen this "convention" described anywhere in Bridge literature, so I suppose there are arguments against it.
The argument FOR it is that it is one step cheaper.
Can anybody help me?
Thank you.
Alphred

[mcphee]

I am pleased to report that I can not even recall the last time I used Gerber. I do not even cover this topic with students, in any detail.

[ahydra]

I've seen people take this even further: after 4C or 4D asking for keycards and the response, the next step asks for the queen, the second step asks for kings (steps not counting the trump suit of course). It's not a bad idea to be honest.

ahydra

[Fluffy]

it's an awful idea, so many players think that the only way to try for slam is to ask for aces. It is complete nonsense. Ask for aces is what you should do when you are certain that you have slam if you have enough keycards.

But people ask for aces when what they want is to invite for slam, when you ask for aces you are not inviting anything, you are stating that there is slam and partner cannot use any judgement, just count keycards, response and then slam is bid if at most 1 is missing. So many people even ask for aces with voids, wich is utterly nonsense because the inf you gather is useless.

[Zelandakh]

Back when I was a student, the popular form of this was Rolling Gerber, where the next step after any Gerber response was the follow-up ask. I did not think much of it myself but our French team mates played it and did not too badly on slam hands. Even earlier than this, I had precisely the same idea, of using 4NT as the king ask rather than 5♣. If you are using Gerber in the traditional way, that is an unbalanced hand opposite a NT opening, then I think it is a big improvement.

[ahydra]

 Fluffy, on 2013-February-14, 08:22, said:

it's an awful idea, so many players think that the only way to try for slam is to ask for aces. It is complete nonsense. Ask for aces is what you should do when you are certain that you have slam if you have enough keycards.

But people ask for aces when what they want is to invite for slam, when you ask for aces you are not inviting anything, you are stating that there is slam and partner cannot use any judgement, just count keycards, response and then slam is bid if at most 1 is missing. So many people even ask for aces with voids, wich is utterly nonsense because the inf you gather is useless.

Your point is valid, but I think the OP was really asking whether this Gerber variant is good or bad. One can use a top-of-the-line tabletop saw to open a packet of frozen chips - the tool is perfectly good, but is being used in the wrong way.

ahydra

[Zelandakh]

For chips (English), read French fries (American).

[ArtK78]

The main drawback of this method is that it makes it impossible to play in 4NT.

[mycroft]

...which is the only reason to play Gerber, isn't it?

[barmar]

Most modern bidders only use Gerber (if they use it at all) in NT auctions, and use Blackwood or some other ace-asking convention (e.g. Minorwood, Kickback) for suit contracts. The point of this is that in a NT auction, you need to be able to bid NT naturally, so it can't also be used as ace-asking.

[ArtK78]

 barmar, on 2013-February-14, 12:06, said:

Most modern bidders only use Gerber (if they use it at all) in NT auctions, and use Blackwood or some other ace-asking convention (e.g. Minorwood, Kickback) for suit contracts. The point of this is that in a NT auction, you need to be able to bid NT naturally, so it can't also be used as ace-asking.

I would disagree with this. Gerber can be useful in suit auctions, and it may let you get out a level lower if insufficient controls are present.

I remember losing a semi-final District GNT match because my partner chose to use RKCB 4NT rather than RKC Gerber in an auction where 4♣ was defined in our partnership notes as RKC Gerber, resulting in our playing in 5♠ down one.

[alphred]

Thank you all.
I was only asking whether the Gerber variant (4C, 4NT) is good or bad.
(What is an OP?)
Some players in my clubs use it after NT openings, and in suit bidding sequences, as a Blackwood variant.
So it seems there are two questions:
Is it good after a NT bid?
Is it good in a suit contract build-up?

Alphred

[ArtK78]

 alphred, on 2013-February-14, 13:37, said:

Thank you all.
I was only asking whether the Gerber variant (4C, 4NT) is good or bad.
(What is an OP?)
Some players in my clubs use it after NT openings, and in suit bidding sequences, as a Blackwood variant.
So it seems there are two questions:
Is it good after a NT bid?
Is it good in a suit contract build-up?

Alphred

OP is "Original Post."

[mikeh]

 ArtK78, on 2013-February-14, 12:24, said:

I would disagree with this. Gerber can be useful in suit auctions, and it may let you get out a level lower if insufficient controls are present.

I remember losing a semi-final District GNT match because my partner chose to use RKCB 4NT rather than RKC Gerber in an auction where 4♣ was defined in our partnership notes as RKC Gerber, resulting in our playing in 5♠ down one.

I'd give long odds that either you or your partner bid sub-optimally either before or by way of the Ace-asking bid, unless you ran into horrible breaks.

Ace asking in slam auctions isn't and shouldn't, imo, be used to find out if a 5-level contract is safe. As Fluffy wrote, one should ask for Aces/keycards only when satisfied on the auction to date that one has a good play for 12 (or 13) tricks provided one is not missing too many keycards.

And one should NEVER be asking for keycards and then finding out that one is missing 3 or 2 with the trump Queen

Gerber in suit auctions clearly comes with the cost of not having 4♣ available for another purpose, and at least imo, cuebidding is worth far more that the (to me virtually non-existent) cost of using kickback/keycard to ask for Aces rather than the space saved from gerber.

[ArtK78]

 mikeh, on 2013-February-14, 15:02, said:

I'd give long odds that either you or your partner bid sub-optimally either before or by way of the Ace-asking bid, unless you ran into horrible breaks.

Ace asking in slam auctions isn't and shouldn't, imo, be used to find out if a 5-level contract is safe. As Fluffy wrote, one should ask for Aces/keycards only when satisfied on the auction to date that one has a good play for 12 (or 13) tricks provided one is not missing too many keycards.

And one should NEVER be asking for keycards and then finding out that one is missing 3 or 2 with the trump Queen

Gerber in suit auctions clearly comes with the cost of not having 4♣ available for another purpose, and at least imo, cuebidding is worth far more that the (to me virtually non-existent) cost of using kickback/keycard to ask for Aces rather than the space saved from gerber.

We were very unlucky to go down in 5. That doesn't change the fact that we didn't have to reach the 5 level.

[Siegmund]

"Original" Gerber used 4C for aces and the cheapest non-playable bid on the next round to ask for kings.

That isn't a horrible idea, if you really believe ace-asking is important enough to do it at that level in the auction. The 4C then 4NT variation is not an improvement though it does perhaps serve to avoid one more source of possible confusion.

It is hard to convince most of us to give up 4C as a splinter, or a natural long-suit slam try, or a cuebid, in most non-notrump sequences, however.

[aguahombre]

 ArtK78, on 2013-February-14, 14:47, said:

OP is "Original Post."

Or, Original Poster, depending on the syntax.

[gwnn]

I prefer Opening Post(er) as some OP's are hardly original. The only place where Gerber has some use is NT auctions and then 4NT is a good place to park.

OK 4C is also played as modified keycard over preempts (01122 for example) but then you will just use the first step as further ask, presumably.

[Zelandakh]

 alphred, on 2013-February-14, 13:37, said:

Is it good after a NT bid?

Before transfers and RKCB became popular, there was a time when it was slightly awkward to bid certain one-suited hands. In this context, Gerber is an extremely good idea. These days, it is nearly always better to simply set the suit as trumps at the 3 level and start a cue bidding sequence before asking for key cards, assuming you are playing a NT structure that allows this. Notice that modern methods that do not allow this, such as Baze, often include RKCG by the back door which is still better than normal Gerber because a trump suit is set.

 alphred, on 2013-February-14, 13:37, said:

Is it good in a suit contract build-up?

This depends primarily on the level of the players involved. For beginner and low intermediate players who have not yet learnt control bids, Gerber makes perfect sense, since the 4♣ bid is effectively unused otherwise. Experience has shown that alternative uses of the bid are more effective, so I would never suggest Gerber as a good solution for better players. As gwnn points out, there are certain exceptions, but as a general rule I would suggest investing in the time to learn a good control bidding style and RKCB.

[fromageGB]

When I started playing, sometime back in the last century or the one before that, the K ask was always the next step if it could not be the trump suit which has to have been previously bid. 4NT was always to play, and if the next step could be construed as to play, you miss that and bid the next to ask for kings. Or the next, etc. So this strikes me as an odd way to do it, especially if Gerber is used for NT contracts and you don't want different methods over a suit or NT. I agree with Zelandakh : useful when you start the game.