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Unintended bid ACBL

Poll: Unintended bid (18 member(s) have cast votes)

What's the right ruling?

  1. Contract is 2H (13 votes [72.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.22%

  2. Contract is 3H (5 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  3. Some split ruling (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#21 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 06:23

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-13, 03:33, said:

We have an official interpretation of "without pause for thought" by the governing body, the WBFLC. To argue that this interpretation is not "the ordinary meaning of this phrase" is a waste of time.


please quote the interpretation. thanks
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#22 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 07:39

View Postaxman, on 2012-July-13, 06:23, said:

please quote the interpretation. thanks


Quote

The attempt to correct must immediately follow the realisation of the mistake when
bidding boxes are in use.
For example, a player places a bidding card on the table, then gazes off into space.
Eventually, he looks down and sees it is not the card he intended. So long as he
attempts to change it now he is in time [if his partner has not subsequently called] even
if it is quite some time after the call was originally placed.
If LHO has called before this attempt to change he may withdraw his call without
penalty [Law 25A4]. The withdrawn call is unauthorised to the side that originally made
the wrong call but authorised to the other side [Law 16D].
[WBFLC minutes 2000-08-30#6]

Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#23 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 09:13

Thanks, Gordon.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#24 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 09:23

View Postblackshoe, on 2012-July-13, 03:33, said:

We have an official interpretation of "without pause for thought" by the governing body, the WBFLC. To argue that this interpretation is not "the ordinary meaning of this phrase" is a waste of time.


As far as I am aware, the WBFLC has not obtained a copyright on the use of this phrase. I was just explaining that I was writing in normal English, not WBFLC-speak.

Yes, we are all well aware that there are several WBFLC minutes explaining that they want Law 25A to be "interpreted" differently. The mystery to many of us is why the wording of the 2007 Laws was not amended to reflect the WBFLC's apparent intention.
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#25 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 10:22

View Postbluejak, on 2012-July-12, 06:27, said:

So a TD should seek to establish the facts, not assume he knows them based on what people generally do.


I agree that the TD should seek to establish the facts. The problem in cases such as this (and it seems like you agree judging by your careful wording "seek to"), is that it is very difficult for the TD to establish all of the necessary relevant facts. Law 25A says:

Law 25 said:

LAW 25: LEGAL AND ILLEGAL CHANGES OF CALL
A. Unintended Call
1. Until his partner makes a call, a player may substitute his intended call for an unintended call but only if he does so, or attempts to do so,
without pause for thought. The second (intended) call stands and is subject to the appropriate Law.
2. No substitution of call may be made when his partner has made a subsequent call.


though we are advised to rule on the basis that Law 25A1 says something like:

"1. Until his partner makes a call, a player may substitute his intended call for an unintended call but only if he does so, or attempts to do so,
as soon as he realises his mistake, without pause for further thought. The second (intended) call stands and is subject to the appropriate Law."



So for a correction to be permitted, the TD needs to establish all of the following:

1. That at the point when he put his hand in the bidding box, the original call was not the call he intended to remove from the bidding box.

2. That at the point when he put his hand in the bidding box, the call he intended to remove from the bidding box was the now proposed substituted call.

3. The exact time (which I shall call time t1) at which the player realised that he had not made his intended call.

4. The exact time (which I shall call time t2) at which the player corrected, or attempted to correct the unintended call.

5. That there was no pause for thought between time t1 and time t2.

6. Whether his partner had called before time t2.


When, as in most Law 25A cases, the correction is immediate, the TD can have a reasonable idea what the answers to questions 1 to 6 might be.

However, in cases like the one in this thread:

View Postawm, on 2012-July-07, 21:35, said:

The 3 bid was undiscussed. At this point South started thinking, spending about a minute (all agreed) to decide what to do. North was looking down at her scorecard for most of this time. Just as South visibly started to reach for his Pass card, North announced that her 3 bid was unintentional (mechanical error) and she had meant to bid 2. The director was called to the table. What should the ruling be?

South and West had decided to pass regardless, so the contract will be either 2 or 3 here (unless you prescribe some split ruling).


the TD has to guess the time of variable t1. For example, if 2 was the intended call, North realised that he had actually bid 3 after 50 seconds and it took a further 10 seconds for him to attempt to correct it, then a Law 25A correction is not allowed.

Even if the TD does allow a Law 25A correction at the table, then, as Campboy rightly points out, the TD would have to consider what prompted North to realise he had made an unintended call. If there is a breach of Law 73A, 73B and/or 73C, we could have the bizarre situation where North is allowed to change his call to 2, the contract is played out in 2 and yet the TD then has to assign an adjusted score, based on the contract being 3!

As the declarer play and defence in 3 may not necessarily be the same as in 2 and the original poster is from ACBL-land, it is conceivable that this could end up with a split score after all!
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#26 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-July-13, 20:44

A violation of law 73 seems very unlikely here.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#27 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-July-14, 00:27

View Postjallerton, on 2012-July-13, 00:19, said:

So, on the occasions when you do not achieve your normal competence level, at what point do you discover that the wrong biding cards have been displayed?

I can't recall specific cases (it's not like this happens frequently, thankfully), but I think it's when something unexpected happens later. For instance, an opponent asking about the bid ("If I think I bid 2, and he asks "What does 2 show?"), or a strange bid from partner, or seeing his confusion. Or I might notice it as I'm putting down my next call. The general point is that something causes me to look at my bidding cards, and that's when I realize that it's not the bid I thought I made.

#28 User is offline   bluejak 

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Posted 2012-July-17, 09:22

View Postjallerton, on 2012-July-13, 09:23, said:

Yes, we are all well aware that there are several WBFLC minutes explaining that they want Law 25A to be "interpreted" differently. The mystery to many of us is why the wording of the 2007 Laws was not amended to reflect the WBFLC's apparent intention.

Not interpreted differently, but interpreted along the lines that the majority believe is both logical and what the Law means.
David Stevenson

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EBL TD
Currently at home
Visiting IBLF from time to time
<webjak666@gmail.com>
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