[Rodney26]

2/1, all jump shifts are weak.

1♠-1NT (forcing)
3♥-4♣

What would most advanced partnerships play 4♣ as?

1. Natural & forcing (x xx Axx KQTxxxx)?
2. Cuebid in support of hearts (x Qxxx Kxx AQxxx)?
3. Assumed to be 2 unless the suit is rebid at the five level, then 1?
4. Natural and nonforcing?

Feel free to weigh in on 5♣ as well over 3♥, and whether that is natural or a heart splinter(Exclusion if applicable).

[Stephen Tu]

http://forums.bridge...topic=36674&hl=


Despite the results of that poll, I am voting for natural/forcing.

[jdonn]

Cuebid, but with an unknown partner or a reason to doubt the agreement I hope people wouldn't torture each other by cuebidding the suit twice...

Since 3♥ is forcing to game, and 4♣ is not game, you can get rid of your choice 4.

[Rodney26]

Stephen Tu, on Feb 1 2010, 06:13 PM, said:

http://forums.bridge...topic=36674&hl=


Despite the results of that poll, I am voting for natural/forcing.

Thanks for the link -- obviously didn't notice that before.

[the hog]

Cue bid agreeing H.

[ONEferBRID]

I don't think there was a concensus in the other thread for 4♣ .

One expert I know plays it as:
4C = natural, non-forcing... long Clubs .. BAD hand
( not wanting to play in 3NT, Sp or Hts ):

"No fit for one of Opener's suits, you don't want to go
above 3NT unless you have a weak, long suit and the only way to get
tricks out of it is if it were trumps ".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Others I know play 4♣ as an advance cue for Opener's 2nd suit, ♥ .

[straube]

natural and forcing. We're only tempted to want this for a cue bid because unlike 1S-1N, 3D-4D, the raise to 4H is not forcing.

However, we can't get around that it's bad for one partner to be able to show a two-suited hand while the other can't show a single-suited hand...especially when he can have invitational strength.

[PhantomSac]

Stephen Tu, on Feb 1 2010, 06:13 PM, said:

http://forums.bridge...topic=36674&hl=


Despite the results of that poll, I am voting for natural/forcing.

Really? STEPHEN TU?!?!

[gnasher]

In a context where 1♠-3♣ is weak, what sort of hand would want to bid 4♣ natural?

[gwnn]

gnasher, on Feb 2 2010, 09:10 AM, said:

In a context where 1♠-3♣ is weak, what sort of hand would want to bid 4♣ natural?

the hand that wanted to bid 3C intermediate?

x
xx
Kxx
AQxxxxx

?

[Jlall]

gwnn, on Feb 2 2010, 07:44 AM, said:

gnasher, on Feb 2 2010, 09:10 AM, said:

In a context where 1♠-3♣ is weak, what sort of hand would want to bid 4♣ natural?

the hand that wanted to bid 3C intermediate?

x
xx
Kxx
AQxxxxx

?

Going past 3N seems dangerous with this hand, though you may have a club slam, you also may have a misfit that can make 3N on power.

Having no way to raise hearts strongly is really absurd though, for every hand you have that you want to bid 4 of a minor (I don't deny that they exist), you have 20 that wants to show a slam positive hand for hearts without having to just bid 5H.

[gwnn]

I agree with all that, I just wanted to say that there is a distinct class of hands that, though being in a minority, would wish to bid 4m naturally.

[Fluffy]

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

[straube]

If someone plays 1S-1N, 3H-4C as agreeing hearts, then that's fine but it's a conventional treatment and not a natural treatment.

That auction is obviously quite a bit different than 1N-2H, 2S-3H, 4C where opener can't want to show clubs.

As long as the partnership is interested in a conventional treatment for this specific sequence (because other similar sequences such as 1S-1N, 3D-4D are not problematic), then one might look at using a 3S rebid as a relay...probably a weak relay.

1S-1N, 3H-3S (weak), 3N (no extra distribution)-
.....4m-weak, bailout
.....4M-weak, fit

but
1S-1N, 3H-3N shows a good hand with no fit
1S-1N, 3H-4m shows a good hand with a good suit
1S-1N, 4M-shows a good hand with a fit

That's off the cuff, but that 3S bid is underutilized imo.

[gwnn]

Fluffy, on Feb 2 2010, 08:06 PM, said:

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

yes, pretty much

[jdonn]

So you give up the ability to show/deny a doubleton spade in partner's suit to gain the ability to stop in 4 of a minor?!?

[straube]

jdonn, on Feb 2 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

So you give up the ability to show/deny a doubleton spade in partner's suit to gain the ability to stop in 4 of a minor?!?

That's a bad trade, but I think that using it as a relay has merit.

How about...

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 3N-
.....4C-two-fit in spades
..........4H-5/5
.....4D-medium hand for hearts
.....4H-weak hand for hearts

1S-1N, 3H-3S,
.....4C-7/4
.....4D-6/5
.....4H-5/5 stronger
.....

1S-1N, 3H-
.....3N-good hand, no fit
.....4m-good hand, minor
.....4M-good hand, major

[Rodney26]

Fluffy, on Feb 2 2010, 03:06 PM, said:

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

3♥ is definitely strong, so hopefully yes.

I was responder and had:

♠
♥T9x
♦KQT9xx
♣Q7xx

I raised 3♥ to 4; partner took another chomp at the apple by bidding 4♠ with:

♠AKJ8xx
♥AKQ6x
♦x
♣x

If I had something like the hand below, he'd want to be in six:

♠x
♥J9xx
♦Axxx
♣xxxx

In this case, 5♥ was too high. I suggested 4m was a cuebid for hearts so I couldn't hold that hand; partner didn't think so and I was surprised that the two partnerships I queried also didn't think so, but agreed with Pavlicek's definition.

Thanks everyone for the input -- much appreciated.

[straube]

Rodney26, on Feb 3 2010, 01:39 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 2 2010, 03:06 PM, said:

am I the only one who thinks OP means 3♥ is WEAK?

3♥ is definitely strong, so hopefully yes.

I was responder and had:

♠
♥T9x
♦KQT9xx
♣Q7xx

I raised 3♥ to 4; partner took another chomp at the apple by bidding 4♠ with:

♠AKJ8xx
♥AKQ6x
♦x
♣x

If I had something like the hand below, he'd want to be in six:

♠x
♥J9xx
♦Axxx
♣xxxx

In this case, 5♥ was too high. I suggested 4m was a cuebid for hearts so I couldn't hold that hand; partner didn't think so and I was surprised that the two partnerships I queried also didn't think so, but agreed with Pavlicek's definition.

Thanks everyone for the input -- much appreciated.

There's that rule about never raising partner's second suit with fewer than four.

But if you had a weak relay (3S) available...

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 4D (6/5)-4H now partner knows you're weak at least.

[ONEferBRID]

straube, on Feb 2 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 2 2010, 04:41 PM, said:

So you give up the ability to show/deny a doubleton spade in partner's suit to gain the ability to stop in 4 of a minor?!?

That's a bad trade, but I think that using it as a relay has merit.

How about...

1S-1N, 3H-3S, 3N-
.....4C-two-fit in spades
..........4H-5/5
.....4D-medium hand for hearts
.....4H-weak hand for hearts

1S-1N, 3H-3S,
.....4C-7/4
.....4D-6/5
.....4H-5/5 stronger
.....

1S-1N, 3H-
.....3N-good hand, no fit
.....4m-good hand, minor
.....4M-good hand, major

This may be the kiss of death... but I like it !