[jillybean]

I am looking at Gerber keycard and MiniMax Gerber and wondering how they fit with my existing system.

1.
1♠:2♣
2♠:3N
4♣ = minimax gerber?

2.
2N:3♣
3♥:4♣ = ♠'s and ♣'s or gerber keycard for ♥'s? Do you revert to 4N for keycard here?

3.
1♦:3N
4♣ = minimax gerber?

4.
1♠:2♣
3♠:4♣ = cue or gerber keycard, do we lose club cues at the 4lvl playing GKC?

thanks

[awm]

If you really want to play lots of Gerber, I recommend rainbow gerber, where the cheapest unbid suit at the four-level is ace-asking. However, in my experience most good players do not play a lot of Gerber. In the auctions you suggest:

1: 4♣ should be natural. Opener has a good hand with 6-4 in the blacks. There is no other reasonable way to try for a club slam in this auction, and 2♠ certainly does not deny a club fit. If you want to play rainbow gerber, 4♦ could be gerber here (4♦ does not really have a natural meaning). Note that with self-sufficient spades opener could've bid 3♠ at second turn. Otherwise what suit are you slamming in?

2: Slam try in clubs. Bidding 3♠ here is an artificial slam try in hearts, after which you can RKC. As a general rule, when partner responds in a major to stayman, it is useful for bidding the other major to indicate a slam try in partner's suit.

3: 4♣ should be natural here. The 3NT bid implies a four-card minor and it is very valuable to be able to start a cuebidding minor-suit slam try in this sequence. If you want 4♥ to be gerber in this auction, that's probably okay.

4: The 3♠ bid sets the suit and demands a cuebid; responder should cuebid. It seems silly to waste your most common cue as gerber. If you play rainbow gerber, 4♦ would be RKC here, which is okay, but I really think opener should be captain.

[kenrexford]

If you are going to play some version of Gerber, I'd suggest super duper trooper gerber.

Here's an example:

Partner opens some level of notrump. Responder's 4♣ asks opener to suggest what 4NT should mean.

If Opener has a lousy hand, he bids 4NT to suggest that 4NT should mean "to play."

If Opener has a good hand with 4+ diamonds, he bids 4♦ to suggest that 4NT should be RKCB for diamonds. If Responder agrees with that idea, he bids 4NT as RKCb for diamonds. If Responder thinks Opener is wrong in his idea, Responder could make his own suggestion as to what 4NT should be, by bidding a four-card major. If Opener agrees, he bids 4NT as RKCB for that major.

If Opener does not have 4+ diamonds, he might bid a 4+ major to suggest that 4NT be RKCB for that major. Again, if responder agrees, he bids 4NT as RKCB for that major.

If no one makes a suggestion as to what 4NT should be RKCB for, then we enter the five-level without any RKCB. Sometimes people cannot agree on anything. However, at the five-level, we might repeat a thought from earlier, by repeating a suit we suggested earlier. Now, it's too late, but at least partner might find the right fit.

if we cannot ever find a fit, then I suppose we stop at 5NT or 6NT and just deal.

The one problem is that 4♣ might frustrate one of us, who realizes that perhaps 4NT should have been RKCB for clubs. However, you can't let parter know this because of his or your own 4♣ call. So, you just now or later, as appropriate, at least mention clubs in case we have a fit there, and maybe repeat them if needed.

By the way, and I am NOT JOKING, I actually play this.

[aguahombre]

with this and your water cooler posts, I conclude that you might be drinking what I am tonight, Ken.

[jillybean]

Thanks Adam,

awm said:

If you really want to play lots of Gerber, I recommend rainbow gerber, where the cheapest unbid suit at the four-level is ace-asking. However, in my experience most good players do not play a lot of Gerber. In the auctions you suggest:

I've only used gerber in a auctions where the opening was NT, my partner wants to play more. What are the good players using in slam bidding in addition to splinters, cues, rkc+ and where is gerber used?

awm said:

1: 4♣ should be natural. Opener has a good hand with 6-4 in the blacks. There is no other reasonable way to try for a club slam in this auction, and 2♠ certainly does not deny a club fit. If you want to play rainbow gerber, 4♦ could be gerber here (4♦ does not really have a natural meaning). Note that with self-sufficient spades opener could've bid 3♠ at second turn. Otherwise what suit are you slamming in?

I forgot to mention I am playing 1M:2♣ as an artificial gf, 2+ clubs. Responder would bid 3♣ next turn with a club suit, I don’t know if 4♣ is needed for opener to show a 6-4 hand.

awm said:

2: Slam try in clubs. Bidding 3♠ here is an artificial slam try in hearts, after which you can RKC. As a general rule, when partner responds in a major to stayman, it is useful for bidding the other major to indicate a slam try in partner's suit.

3♠ asks partner to start cueing or forces 4N?

awm said:

3: 4♣ should be natural here. The 3NT bid implies a four-card minor and it is very valuable to be able to start a cuebidding minor-suit slam try in this sequence. If you want 4♥ to be gerber in this auction, that's probably okay.

4nt here would be quantitative?

awm said:

4: The 3♠ bid sets the suit and demands a cuebid; responder should cuebid. It seems silly to waste your most common cue as gerber. If you play rainbow gerber, 4♦ would be RKC here, which is okay, but I really think opener should be captain .

Well, I got 1 out of 4

[awm]

I would say that most good players rely on cuebids pretty heavily for slam bidding. There are a few gadgets like "serious 3NT" that come up occasionally. If you're looking for ace-asking conventions:

(1) A lot of good pairs use 4♣ over an opening preempt by partner as a form of keycard in partner's suit.

(2) There's a convention called kickback where the call just above four of the trump suit is RKC. So if hearts are trump, 4♠ is keycard. This solves some problems where keycard in a minor especially can get you too high.

(3) Some pairs play four of a minor as keycard in that minor; however I think kickback is a lot better.

Otherwise, avoid playing gerber except over notrump openings (or 2♣-2♦-2NT).

After 1♠-2♣, it's important to be able to find your 4-4 club fit. Opener might rebid 2♠ when holding four clubs, especially if a 6-4 hand (it takes up less space, etc). I don't think responder should be rebidding 3♣ on a four card suit do you? Maybe it's good to have responder bid 2NT over 2♠ rather than 3NT most of the time; a lot of people use 3NT there to show extras (like 15-17) at which point it's quite reasonable for opener to try 4♣ on a good 6-4.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I've only used gerber in a auctions where the opening was NT, my partner wants to play more. What are the good players using in slam bidding in addition to splinters, cues, rkc+ and where is gerber used?

Gerber practically never. There's a fairly strong inverse correlation between frequency of 4c intended as Gerber & the skill of a player. It's just way, way too often that you need clubs to actually show clubs or a control in clubs or shortness in clubs. Using that is going to win you way more MP/IMPs in slam/not slam decisions than knowing how many aces your partner has.

Stick to only directly over opening 1nt/2nt, 2c-2d-2nt, and immediately after a *2 level* stayman auction (not 3 level, and not transfer auctions). Maybe sequences 1x-1y-1nt-4c or 1x-1y-2nt-4c as well.

IMO it would be good training for beginning/int players to actually not use any ace asking bids at all for awhile (including blackwood/RKC), just use 4nt as a trump cue or D.I. = "declarative interrogative" (mark time, extras, tell me more). Then you can start seeing clearly the differences between hands where truly all you needed was # of aces/KC & the ones where your hand evaluation was suspect. (Too often poor players get to slams holding all aces or missing only one, but still not enough tricks). You may also have a bit of adventure going down and making slams off two aces . Then you start to say "oh, *THIS* is the type of hand where simple blkwood/RKC would have been easiest".

[fromageGB]

kenrexford, on Sep 18 2009, 05:13 AM, said:

The one problem is that 4♣ might frustrate one of us, who realizes that perhaps 4NT should have been RKCB for clubs.  However, you can't let parter know this because of his or your own 4♣ call.  So, you just now or later, as appropriate, at least mention clubs in case we have a fit there, and maybe repeat them if needed.

This is the big snag with super duper trooper gerber, and the answer, obvious when you think about it, is modified super duper trooper gerber.

For those who have never come across it, it will strike you as blindingly simple, and you will wonder why everyone doesn't play it. When partner opens some level of NT, a reply of 3NT expresses slam interest and asks opener to suggest what 4NT should mean. Now there is room for opener to bid 4♣ as a suggestion that 4NT should be ace asking in clubs.

[maggieb]

Although transfer gerber might theoretically be best, unless you are going to spend a lot of time discussing your gerber auctions I think you are better of playing just mini-maxi gerber or rainbow gerber.

[kenrexford]

fromageGB, on Sep 18 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Sep 18 2009, 05:13 AM, said:

The one problem is that 4♣ might frustrate one of us, who realizes that perhaps 4NT should have been RKCB for clubs.  However, you can't let parter know this because of his or your own 4♣ call.  So, you just now or later, as appropriate, at least mention clubs in case we have a fit there, and maybe repeat them if needed.

This is the big snag with super duper trooper gerber, and the answer, obvious when you think about it, is modified super duper trooper gerber.

For those who have never come across it, it will strike you as blindingly simple, and you will wonder why everyone doesn't play it. When partner opens some level of NT, a reply of 3NT expresses slam interest and asks opener to suggest what 4NT should mean. Now there is room for opener to bid 4♣ as a suggestion that 4NT should be ace asking in clubs.

I like it.

You could also play "modified super duper trooper kickback gerber."

3♠ would then be the call, with calls telling partner what the next-up plus one suit bid should mean. This would get a little complicated. For example, after a 3♠ call, 3NT would means that Opener thinks that 4♦ should be kickback for clubs. If Responder disagrees, but has diamonds, Responder could bid 4♣ to say that 4♥ should be kickback for diamonds. If Opener disagrees, he could bid 4♦ to say that 4♠ should be kickback for hearts. And so on.

I think this is the ideal solution, when the opening is 2NT.

Except, then you think that perhaps 3♠ should also allow Opener to sign off at 3NT, after 1NT openings.

In that event, 3♥ would be "submarine modified super duper trooper kickback gerber." This allows 3♠ to suggest that 4♦ would be kickback for clubs, but then 3NT by Opener, instead, is a signoff.

So:

3NT opening -- play super duper trooper gerber
2NT opening -- play modified super duper trooper kickback gerber
1NT opening -- play submarine modified super duper trooper kickback gerber

Seems rather obvious, now that I think about it.

[helene_t]

fromageGB, on Sep 18 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

This is the big snag with super duper trooper gerber, and the answer, obvious when you think about it, is modified super duper trooper gerber.

You guys are so primitive.

Here in Lancaster we teach beginners to play enhanced modified super duper trooper turbo kickback. Second-year students learn about inverted enhanced modified super duper trooper turbo kickback.

[cherdanno]

jillybean, on Sep 17 2009, 11:36 PM, said:

Thanks Adam,

awm said:

If you really want to play lots of Gerber, I recommend rainbow gerber, where the cheapest unbid suit at the four-level is ace-asking. However, in my experience most good players do not play a lot of Gerber. In the auctions you suggest:

I've only used gerber in a auctions where the opening was NT, my partner wants to play more. What are the good players using in slam bidding in addition to splinters, cues, rkc+ and where is gerber used?

I also play exclusion (very rarely). I don't play Gerber except over 1N or 2N openings.
I also have the fancy agreement that making more cues shows more slam interest. Oh ok and sometimes if there is little space, the only available cue just shows slam interest, not a control. More gerber would just gerberize me.
Oh ok, 5N is often pick-a-slam, and sometimes somehow related to trumps. I never quite know and would probably be better off just playing it as pick-a-slam

[hanp]

Hilarious post as usual cherdanno.

[Ant590]

One must also not forget protective Gerber (as witnessed by a friend):

1♣ -- Pass -- 2♣ -- 2♠
3♣ -- 3♠ -- Pass -- Pass
4♣* --

alerted...

[Fluffy]

awm, on Sep 18 2009, 01:17 AM, said:

If you really want to play lots of Gerber, I recommend rainbow gerber, where the cheapest unbid suit at the four-level is ace-asking. However, in my experience most good players do not play a lot of Gerber.

I was surfing yesterday through poorbridge.com, and found the article about rainbow gerber. Never expected to read about it anywhere else.

I haven't ever used any form of gerber, so I don't really know if it is really a serious convention, the article about how it was invented, at least, doesn't seem very serious.

http://poorbridge.com/?misc=28

[CSGibson]

My partner and I play the following:

After opening or rebidding 1N or 2N, 4♣ is mini-max gerber (1430).

In a situation where I've transfered to a major at the 2 level, 3 of the other major shows undisclosed shortness, 4♣ is 1430, and 4♦ is a quantitative slam try.

In stayman auctions, after opener shows a major, 3 of the other major shows undisclosed shortness, 4♣ is keycard agreeing the major, 4♦ is a quantitative slam try with a fit, 4 of the other major is a quantitative slam try without a fit, asking to bid on with any non-minimum, and 4N is a quantitative slam try without a fit asking to bid on with any maximum.

In stayman auctions after opener bids 2♦ denying a major, then 4♣ is mini-max gerber, 4♦ is 5-5 in the majors with a slam try, 4♥ is 5-5 in the majors but not a slam try, 4♠ is a quantitative invitation asking opener to bid on with any non-minimum, and 4N is a quantitative invitation asking opener to bid on with a maximum.

In my time playing this NT structure (about 8 months), I have never had a gerber auction. There are very few times it is right to do so instead of the other options available, and I can't really imagine that it is really worthwhile to increase 4♣ as gerber, since it is so often right to have cue-bidding auctions before you are ready to roll out some version of blackwood/gerber.

[clamatius]

You all don't know what it means to me to see that the great news of Rainbow Gerber has started to capture people's imagination. I can only thank poorbridge.com for allowing me to spread the good word...

Obviously, I would heartily endorse the use of Rainbow Gerber. It is a fine convention, some might argue the best (well I would, anyway). It is a shame that poorbridge.com is closed at the moment as my good friend Alan Shillitoe had prepared some exciting further Gerber continuations. I'll just give you a quick taste of "Over The Top Gerber" and Last Train Gerber. The Saint and I were playing on BBO against two confident Juniors. The first board of the session saw our first use of Gerber *twice* in the auction.... I know - I was excited too....

I opened a heart with my nice distributional 18 count. Partner found a quiet raise to 2H and I made a mild slam-try with 4C (Last-Train Gerber in this auction).

Partner showed no aces, so I naturally signed-off in 4H. This obviously showed a decent raise to 4H. With a poorer hand, I would have just quietly signed off in 4H. In a fit of inspiration, partner looked fondly at this three kings and 4 trumps, and thought this would be a perfect time for 4S (Over-the-top Gerber). I showed my 3 aces and he raised to the cold 6H. The opponents naturally were a bit taken back and we happily chalked up our 13 imps. Bidding just doesn't get any better than this......