[gwnn]

Why do many people (maybe me too) say/think a plan that sounds something like

"hm I'll try (action x). if it doesn't work, I'll apologize."

I don't mean to sound rude or immature but everybody obviously tries to do his or her best in bidding, declarer play and defence. As long as one gave the matter enough thought and made an intelligent decision, one's conscience should be clear.

Invariably sometimes the action you judged to be %-age will be wrong (either in the sense that it didn't work or that it's just flat out anti %). But does that constitute reason enough to say 'sorry'?

[awm]

The point is to absolve partner of blame for the hand; for example when you go down in a contract that could've made, you say "sorry partner, I could've made it" so partner knows that you are not blaming him for getting to a bad contract -- rather, if there is any fault on the hand, it is your fault for not making, although you may have taken a perfectly reasonable percentage line.

A roughly equivalent statement would be "oh well, unlucky."

The opposite attitude is when you go down in a makable contract, you berate partner for bidding the contract in the first place until partner apologizes, so that everyone at the table knows that you are the best player ever and the bad result was due to partner's inadequacies. The frequent apologies some players make are to some degree an (over)reaction to the seeming popularity of the partner-berating approach to the game.

[NickRW]

gwnn, on Aug 11 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Why do many people (maybe me too) say/think a plan that sounds something like

"hm I'll try (action x). if it doesn't work, I'll apologize."

I don't mean to sound rude or immature but everybody obviously tries to do his or her best in bidding, declarer play and defence. As long as one gave the matter enough thought and made an intelligent decision, one's conscience should be clear.

Invariably sometimes the action you judged to be %-age will be wrong (either in the sense that it didn't work or that it's just flat out anti %). But does that constitute reason enough to say 'sorry'?

My personal opinion - never say sorry at the table. People get into a loser mind set. If you (or partner) wants to discuss some bid or play on the board, circle the board number on the score card and discuss it afterwards. Discussion at the time focuses attention on the board just played and will in no way help with the play of the next board - which is where you need all of your attention.

Even worse, is criticising partner for, I hope, obvious reasons. If you must say "well done", do so, but even that is really a waste of air - save it for the bar. If partner apologises - just say, "OK" and move on - don't pander to their mind set about it in any way.

This sounds impersonal - I suppose to an extent it is - but I think it is winning psychology.

Nick

[nigel_k]

If I have a close decision and my choice turns out badly, I often apologize.

Not because I have anything to be genuinely sorry for (though I apologize often enough in that case as well), but because I don't want partner worrying it was their fault or a misunderstanding.

It's kind of a way of saying 'your bidding was fine' without sounding condescending.

[MFA]

gwnn, on Aug 12 2009, 12:51 AM, said:

Why do many people (maybe me too) say/think a plan that sounds something like

"hm I'll try (action x). if it doesn't work, I'll apologize."

I don't mean to sound rude or immature but everybody obviously tries to do his or her best in bidding, declarer play and defence. As long as one gave the matter enough thought and made an intelligent decision, one's conscience should be clear.

Invariably sometimes the action you judged to be %-age will be wrong (either in the sense that it didn't work or that it's just flat out anti %). But does that constitute reason enough to say 'sorry'?

I 100% agree.

I wouldn't dream of apologizing if I pass a forcing bid, bid NT without a stopper, jump to slam without 2 aces etc., and my decision backfires. Let alone all the ordinary decisions that might go wrong.

I trust partner to know that I always do my best when I play. Even when I have done something that is just a very silly mistake. It's a part of the game to make mistakes.

It's the same I'm hoping for with my partner. That he does his best. If he apologizes all the time, I'm just thinking that he is saying that he isn't trying as hard as he should. I can use that to nothing other than getting annoyed.

[1eyedjack]

I actually find it intensely irritating when my partner apologises for no reason. It is akin to saying well played just because he made a stone cold contract contract, or saying sorry for going down in a contract which nevertheless nets you plus 10 imps.

[TMorris]

NickRW, on Aug 12 2009, 12:21 AM, said:

My personal opinion - never say sorry at the table.  ...

I think sometimes if you do something especially daft it can be worth saying sorry to acknowledge that it was your fault. I agree you should leave any discussion until later, although usually you both know what has happened and there is rarely any need to discuss in cases of clear error. It can help to defuse partner's inevitable irritation with a daft error and help them to concentrate better on the next board.

[Phil]

You have to determine these comments within the context of the partnership. For instance, I would never consider passing a forcing bid with a good client (a bad client won't notice). But in all of my regular partnerships, where I expect each of us to think, there is latitude to make anti-partnership bids, ignore signals, etc..

For instance if I were NV and responded 1♠ with Qxxxx, Jxx, x, xxxx to partner's 1♦ and passed a 2♥ reverse, I would definitely say "sorry if this is wrong".

Why? Because partner will be very annoyed to take 10 tricks with his x AKQxx, AKJTxx, x.

But he will be quite happy to be in 2♥ when he holds x KQxx AQxxx, AKx.

So, when I say "sorry" it really means, "sorry that I'm using my judgment, because I think that 2♥ will be our best contract most of the time, but I'm sorry if you make game".

[barmar]

I generally only apologize when I did something I knew was borderline (or worse) and we were rightfully punished for my poor judgement. "Sorry, I stretched to bid game."

There's also stupid mistakes like miscounting trumps.

[JoAnneM]

I was recently reading the history of bridge. It started as a game of gentlemen, and then ladies. It was played in a society where people wore suits and dresses, addressed each other as Mr. and Mrs., said please and thank you, probably even "well done".

Now we are discussing whether we should say "sorry". The game has certainly come a long way.

[barmar]

Is "Oops" OK?

[gwnn]

I don't understand your reply, JoAnne. Surely if you think apologizing is so indicated, you can find some sort of argument to support it? Saying that 'real gentlemen would know why you need to apologize' is no help to anybody.

[Elianna]

gwnn, on Aug 12 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

I don't understand your reply, JoAnne. Surely if you think apologizing is so indicated, you can find some sort of argument to support it? Saying that 'real gentlemen would know why you need to apologize' is no help to anybody.

Forgive me for speaking for someone else, but I think that her point it is that previously bridge was a game for ladies and gentlemen, and now you're castigating people for saying sorry?!? That's just amazing.

If someone feels the need to say sorry, what's your problem? I feel the same way if someone chooses to say "thank you" when they see the dummy, and others complain about that. What's the problem with saying "Thank you"? Similarly, what's the PROBLEM with saying "sorry"? Why are you making it an issue?

[Elianna]

Also, why does "I'm sorry" always mean "I did something wrong and I'm apologizing for it"? A lot of times it means "I regret that you were put in that situation", or "I feel sorry for you".

If someone tells me some hard-luck story, my normal reaction is "I feel sorry for you". Not that "I feel responsible and am apologizing", it's "I feel sorrow for you that you went through this".

[NickRW]

JoAnneM, on Aug 13 2009, 02:34 AM, said:

I was recently reading the history of bridge. It started as a game of gentlemen, and then ladies. It was played in a society where people wore suits and dresses, addressed each other as Mr. and Mrs., said please and thank you, probably even "well done".

Now we are discussing whether we should say "sorry". The game has certainly come a long way.

I blame the Aussies. At one time of day British polite society (which was, and still to an extent is, mainly who plays bridge) was very much "stiff upper lip" and "it's not the winning, but the taking part that counts". Can't really speak for the Americans - but I get the impression, in the past, that some Americans aspired to a similar mindset even though it perhaps wasn't as natural for them. Then Aussies taught us that coming second is first loser - take their sport very seriously down under so it seems.

Nick

[gwnn]

Elianna,

I don't think I was castigating people. I think my opening post attempted to ask a question. I simply do not see a good reason to apologize in those situations. If I feel (for example) that I should apologize after raising partner on a 5 count and getting a bad result maybe I should not have raised in the first place. I was wondering what people's motivations were. I don't think I said or implied that I find such people annoying or evil. If my reply was ambiguous in this, I apologize. Also, thank you for your nice explanation in your second post.

[theli]

i think saying sorry is an acknowledgement that what went wrong in the hand at stake was your fault and not partner's. this is not for counting how many errors each does but simply for discovering errors and avoiding them in the future and for maintaining a good atmosphere inside the pair.

i think that if we don't acknowledge our mistakes this will make the relation between partners worse.

[NickRW]

theli, on Aug 13 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

...i think that if we don't acknowledge our mistakes this will make the relation between partners worse.

Yes, when I said don't apologise, I meant that more for the established partnership - and such people can, do and should discuss things afterwards. In a casual partnership one has to find some way of assuring partner that it wasn't their bad (or different wavelength) bidding that caused the contract to fail.

But I do get a bit miffed with partners who constantly whine "sorry". I want to scream after a while, "so you messed it up - I don't care - I want to concentrate on the next hand - it is OK - just pleeeeez can we move on".

Nick

[awm]

Sometimes apologizing actually helps to move on to the next hand though.

It's easy to get caught up in thinking about last hand's bad result, wondering if there was something I could've done better. If partner says "sorry, my fault" it absolves me of any responsibility and helps clear the mind of the disastrous board.

In fact, sometimes it even helps to apologize when not at fault, to stop partner from obsessing over the last board.