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Double after passing over a weak two

Poll: What is your preferred meaning for (2S) pass (3S) pass (pass) dbl ? (30 member(s) have cast votes)

What is your preferred meaning for (2S) pass (3S) pass (pass) dbl ?

  1. Penalty (24 votes [80.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

  2. Takeout, too weak for a first-round double (5 votes [16.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.67%

  3. Takeout, too flawed for a first-round double (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Balanced, opening strength (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Some two-suiter (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Something else (1 votes [3.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

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#1 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-February-09, 17:47

I'm hoping for a bit less unanimity than in my last poll.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#2 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-February-09, 17:52

Someone find the old thread about this auction :angry:
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#3 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-February-09, 18:08

Hi,

I tried to cheat, getting the votes, before casting my
vote, but there are no votes yet.

I guess it is penalty, anything else makse no sense.


With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#4 User is online   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-February-09, 18:17

If p is a passed hand it can only p penalty, so I would play it as penalty overall for simplicity.

Maybe it would be a good idea to agree to what level we play those delayed t/o doubles which also come up after 1-level openings. I suppose 2♥ or 3♦ or somewhere in between could be the highest level for a delayed t/o double.

Obviously they do not apply after we have opened, for example
1m-(1M)-pass-(2M)
pass-(pass)-dbl*
is penalty even if
(1M)-pass-(2M)-pass
(pass)-dbl*
is t/o.

Maybe there is already a standard for this, I would be very interested in hearing about it if that's the case.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-February-09, 20:56

Wait, you hope for less unanimity and you come with this? :angry:
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-February-09, 22:03

I like to play this as takeout, but short in RESPONDER"s suit.

Just kidding. :angry:
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#7 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 02:34

No 1st round t/o fearing 4S+ bounce would get us too high.
But Game close now as clearly top-bounded.
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#8 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 02:58

yea Helene what about

1♠-p-3♠(lott raise, almost s/o)-p
p-X

I'm not sure but I sure would take it as penalty
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 04:09

gnasher, on Feb 10 2008, 12:47 AM, said:

I'm hoping for a bit less unanimity than in my last poll.

Keep hoping... This one is clear ;)
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#10 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 06:07

Well the voting is close to unanimous, though few commentators have provided anything in the way of analysis or justification. Here are the reasons that I think the question worth asking:

A penalty double on this auction is, to say the least, rare. I can't remember ever making this call. The only time I have seen anyone else make it, they had a balanced 13 count with SA98x.

If you do have a hand suitable for a penalty double, your partner will be quite weak, because he failed to act with what is probably a void in their suit. Your hands will fit badly, so you won't have a game bonus to protect.

There are several hand-types that would pass over 2S but might then want to act on the next round. for example:
x AJxxx xx KJ10xx
x AJx Q10xxx Kxxx
x AJxx Qx K10xxxx

With any of these I'd want to bid over 3S, certainly when non-vulnerable, without ruling out defending or playing in 3NT.

It seems to me that the likely loss from using this double to mean something else is tiny, and the potential gain quite significant.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#11 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 10:45

I wouldn't want to act with any of these hands. If I did want to act with some 2-suiter that I didn't dare to bid with earlier then I could bid 3NT.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#12 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 14:05

Two-way - either pure takeout (a void and an eight-count, say) or pure penalty.
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#13 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 16:58

I play 1S P 3S P P x as takeout, but I play this auction as penalties. They are extremely rare auctions, but I've had the penalty double after a weak two a couple of times. It's usually something like a 4414 14-count or so.

Part of the difference is that people like to raise a weak 2 without their call (sometimes on a doubleton) whereas 1S P 3S is basically always a 9-card fit.
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#14 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-February-10, 21:02

btw last time I posted this auction a few years ago my hand was like... xxx in their suit and 14 and we were cold for 4M. Partner passed it with a stiff spade not knowing what it was and using the "look at your hand" thingy. This was at the team trials and the experts polled were split on the meaning.
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#15 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 21:06

I agree that playing it as "look at your hand to tell which" is so bad that it's completely unplayable. Picking either one is ok, but I think takeout is better.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#16 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-February-10, 22:48

gnasher, on Feb 10 2008, 07:07 PM, said:

There are several hand-types that would pass over 2S but might then want to act on the next round. for example:
x AJxxx xx KJ10xx
x AJx Q10xxx Kxxx
x AJxx Qx K10xxxx

With any of these I'd want to bid over 3S, certainly when non-vulnerable, without ruling out defending or playing in 3NT.

It seems to me that the likely loss from using this double to mean something else is tiny, and the potential gain quite significant.

You don't want to bid over 2S, but you want to bid over 3S? Hmmmm!!!! Tell me, do you ever play high stakes rubber? I so, where and can I join the game please?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#17 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2008-February-11, 02:03

The_Hog, on Feb 11 2008, 04:48 AM, said:

You don't want to bid over 2S, but you want to bid over 3S? Hmmmm!!!! Tell me, do you ever play high stakes rubber? I so, where and can I join the game please?

Agree 100%.
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#18 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-February-11, 06:13

weakish t/o for meeeeeeeee
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