[cherdano]

Celebrating the first anniversary of Hannie's New suit invitational thread tomorrow, I today agreed a similar treatment with my f2f partner, specifically for 1m-1x-2m auctions. This is after we stumbled into a making 6♣ after one of us invented a forcing club raise after 1♣-1♥-2♣ that partner didn't understand.

Maybe some context: we play WJS, no reverse flannery. We don't want to play too many conventions, but we like XYZ so decided to keep it very similar:

Next step is a puppet, forcing opener to bid the step after that; either to play (this doesn't always make sense) or for any invitational hand (followed up by a natural bid). Second step is an artificial game force, just pretend it's 4th suit forcing and reply as naturally as possible.

This seems very similar to what Phil had suggested in an earlier thread.

Has anyone actually been playing a scheme like that? What experiences have you had with it?

Examples:
1♣-1♥-2♣:

• 2♦ relay to play in 2♥ or any invitational hand
  
• 2♥ artificial game force
  
• 2♠ natural, GF
  
• 2NT balanced invite
  
• 3♣ GF, mild slam interest or more
  
• 3♦ 5-5 slam interest
  
• 3♥ slam interest, setting trumps

Yes I know 2NT could be assigned an artificial meaning, but I am more interested in practical problems people might see. (I am also not very interested in assigning meanings to any of the "impossible" followups to the invitational puppet.)

One problem is the loss of e.g. a natural 2♥ rebid after 1♦-1♥-2♦. This doesn't worry me much given we play WJS. Another drawback is the difficulty of showing an invitational hand with the majors after, say, 1♦-1♠-2♦, since the 3-level might be too high. (Reverse flannery would trade away the latter problem but buy the former.)
Overall, it looks to me like the trade-off is worth it, and I don't see anything else that is obviously superior. I am really looking forward to the forcing raise to 3m!

(Of course I claim no originality for this scheme. Pretty similar to what Phil wrote, and I think an Argentinian pair in CTC last year was playing the same treatment, though I don't remember their names currently.)

After 1♥-1♠-2♥, space is so cramped that it seems one needs all of the available bids as natural (in particular 2♠ artificial seems evil, we play invitational jumps over 1♥ and so a constructive 2♠ should be quite useful).

Thoughts?

Arend

[han]

Has it been that long... time flies when playing bridge!

I think your scheme is significantly better than mine. The major drawback of my structure was the lack of a non-descript artificial GF. On some hands you just want to hear what partner has to say. But as you note, there is not enough room for your structue over 1D-1H-2D and 1H-1S-2H, and certainly not for the biggest problem auction in standard FSF (1H-1S-2D-3C).

I imagine that your structure is exactly the same after 1D-1S-2D (with 2H as relay, that is not ideal when you don't play reverse Flannery) and after 1C-1S-2C it would look something like this:

2♦: drop in 2H or 2S OR any invitational hand (partner should assume weak with 5-4 in the majors and bid 2H or 2S accordingly).
2♥: natural, GF.
2♠: artificial GF.
2NT: balanced invite... although it shouldn't .
3♣: natural GF.
3♦: natural, at least mild slam interest (should it really show 5-5 and/or slam interest? I don't think so!)
3♥: splinter?
3♠: natural GF.

This looks good.

[cherdano]

Hannie, on Feb 15 2006, 10:38 PM, said:

Has it been that long... time flies when playing bridge!

I think your scheme is significantly better than mine. The major drawback of my structure was the lack of a non-descript artificial GF. On some hands you just want to hear what partner has to say. But as you note, there is not enough room for your structue over 1D-1H-2D and 1H-1S-2H, and certainly not for the biggest problem auction in standard FSF (1H-1S-2D-3C).

I imagine that your structure is exactly the same after 1D-1S-2D (with 2H as relay, that is not ideal when you don't play reverse Flannery) and after 1C-1S-2C it would look something like this:

2♦: drop in 2H or 2S OR any invitational hand (partner should assume weak with 5-4 in the majors and bid 2H or 2S accordingly).
2♥: natural, GF.
2♠: artificial GF.
2NT: balanced invite... although it shouldn't .
3♣: natural GF.
3♦: natural, at least mild slam interest (should it really show 5-5 and/or slam interest? I don't think so!)
3♥: splinter?
3♠: natural GF.

This looks good.

Not quite: After 1♦-1♠-2♦, 2♥ is the invitational relay (or to play in 2♠), and 2♠ the artificial GF, yes. After 1♦-1♥-2♦, we do play the system, so 2♥ is now purely an invitational relay, and 2♠ the artificial GF. We drop this scheme only specifically after 1♥-1♠-2♥.

After 1♣-1♠-2♣, 2♦ is to play in the majors, or invitational, and 2♥ is artificial GF. 2♠ is pretty much to play, but I suppose opener is allowed to raise with 3 card support (we don't raise that often with 3 card support). If you have 5-4 in the majors, I don't think much is lost if you have to start with 2♥ artificial instead of 2♥ natural.

About the 3♦ above: I think it should show 5-5 and interest in 5♦. Then 6♦ is not that far away. 3♥ would also be 5-5 in our scheme.

Reaaally robotic

Arend

[pclayton]

I've dropped the artificial game force from the responses. You can still 'punt' with the NSI bid and try to catch up later. I don't play NSI as a 'puppet' either. Opener makes a strong move with top of the range, or a simple rebid with a minimum.

I wrote an article on NSI 12 months ago and its on my old PC that got thrown out . This is how I think we play it:

_________________________________

After a 2♣ rebid (doesn't really matter what opener opened with):

2♦ - NSI (unless auction started 1♣ - 1♦, then its NF). Opener's rebids:

Example - 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦:

Non-forcing rebids:

A. 2♥; minimum; 4♥, 5+♣'s
B. 2♠; minimum, 3 card support
C. 2N; minimum, denies 4♥, 3♠ but promises ♦ stop
D. 3♣; minimum


Forcing Rebids:

E. 3♦; Maximum; may be a punt with anti-positional diamond stop.
F. 3♥; max with 4 hearts
G. 3♠; max with 3 spades
H. 3N - max

2♥ - Natural, one round force (non-reverse) / game force (reverse), unless:
A. Responder started with 1♦, where its NSI
B. Responder started with 1♥, where its NF

2♠ - Natural, one round force (non-reverse) / game force (reverse), unless:
A. Responder started with 1♦, where its NSI
B. Responder started with 1♠, where its NF

2N / 3♣ / 3♦ / 3♥ - Natural, game forcing

_________________________________

After a 2♦ rebid (unless its a reverse):

2♥ - NSI (unless auction started 1x - 1♥)

2♠ - Natural, game force (reverse), or NSI is responder started with 1♥

2N / 3♣ / 3♦ / 3♥ - GF, Natural

_________________________________

After 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♥, NSI really doesn't apply, but I can see some kind of Lebensohl-ish 2N where responder can show a limited hand with ♠+ a minor and use 3 minor as GF.